Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Knights Templar today

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result of the debate was merge (to four different places per Elonka). bainer (talk) 00:48, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Knights Templar today

This article incorporates a lot of legend as fact, and the rest is almost all redundant with the articles already existing (see Knights Templar (military order), History of the Knights Templar and Knights Templar legends) --Loremaster 19:39, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

• Speedy delete Merge. It appears that the article creator (a new user) attempted to place unsubstantiated claims in the main Knights Templar (military order) article, and when his changes were reverted, he created this "Knights Templar today" article instead. It contains incorrect information, is full of typing errors, and probably deserves to be speedily deleted, or at the very least, marked as "merge the factual parts into Knights Templar in England." --Elonka 08:36, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

Davidsolomon 6 March 2006:

Hello everybody,

I have exhaustively read the Talk:Knights Templar (military order) page, the History of the Knights Templar section, the Knights Templar in England page and other articles around the subject area as well and frankly there is a lot missing. Why is nobody interested in the Templars in England, or the post-disbandment history of the men in the Order there?

The Knights Templar in England page makes no reference of Baldock or its County, Hertfordshire whatsoever! That is where the Templars had their HQ between 1199 and 1254!! They founded the town and gave it its name!! Other Templar locations still exist in Hertfordshire, such as Hitchin and Hertford Castle (where Templars from Temple Dinsley - ALSO IN HERTFORDSHIRE - were locked up during the persecution. How can any serious page on the Templars, let alone the Templars in England, exclude this factual historical information? Some Templar historians seem to be terrified of Hertfordshire because they know that some people believe the Templars are still there.

Sorry for the typos, I only just created the article and I have not yet finished editing it (in face the drastic response to it may be a little premature!)

I created this article because there is not a single word elsewhere about the Knights Templar after the official disbandment in 1312. There is information about the Freemasonic Knights Templar, but they have no connection with the original Order whatsoever. In fact the only basis for a connection between the two is that somebody once claimed that crusaders formed Freemasonry to make sure they could tell the difference between themselves and the local Muslim population!

Where else in this entire encyclopedia is there information about what happened to the Templars who were not killed (only a tiny minority were killed.)

Is there no reasonable reference to legend anywhere else in this encyclopedia? I see mention of the Holy Grail in other articles but nobody wants to delete them. The Templars are positively steeped in myth and legend as I have pointed out and no piece on the Templars is complete without mention of some of the main legends that surround them.

I've only used solid information and I've also included my sources so I don't see the problem.

I urge you not to delete or make drastic changes to this article because it contains important information - with sources - that is not included anywhere else. That is why I spent so many hours creating the article!

Where else is there material on the Templars in England (the last place they went unpersecuted and the country that bears their flag as its own)? Where else is there information about what happened to the men of the Temple after the persecution began?

Please do not ignore the research of experts with specialist local knowledge like Helen Nicholson, Sylvia P. Beamon and F. M Page simply because it does not fit the usual brand of Templar material, which deliberately avoids the subject of the activities of Templar men after the Order ceased to exist. The men themselves did not spontaneously cease to exist after 1312 and indeed the activities of Templar fugitives after 1312, including the construction of Royston Cave, are fascinating. So why do many historians fearfully ignore them?! These are not modern Freemasonic Templars studying the Order from the United States.

The experts I invoke are people who live and work in towns like Baldock, towns founded by the Templars. These experts have studied the structures the Templars built after the dissolution and some of them indeed have had contact with people today who are involved with the genuine underground Templar order that continued directly from the original. Why does this create so much fear? Perhaps it is because in a cosy, neat and tidy world, if somebody important says, "your organisation no longer exists" that is the final word on the matter. But what if the people concerned don't share that view? What if they still consider themselves a part of something?

Removing or seriously altering this article will denude and rob this encyclopedia of information on a subject that appeals to a great many people. And the legends surrounding it only add to its appeal.

Thank you for reading my response.

God bless. (Posted by DavidSolomon)

I do not believe that there is need for an additional article, so the Knights Templar today article should be deleted or redirected to Knights Templar (disambiguation). Other information should be incorporated into existing articles as follows:

• Additional information about Templar activities in England should be merged into Knights Templar in England (which I agree, is badly in need of expansion)
• Additional information about what happened to Templars in the decades following their suppression in the 1300s should be merged into: History of the Knights Templar
• Additional information about Masonic Templar activities (if referenced) should be merged into: Masonic Knights Templar.
• Additional information that is unreferenced, meaning that it is believed to be true but does not have solid confirmation, should be merged into: Knights Templar legends

If I missed anything, let me know.  :) --Elonka 17:50, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

• What, no hay wain? No Bannocksburn? Merge to four places as suggested by Elonka. Article doesn't really match its title and content doesn't need to be separate from the existing articles. Barno 18:47, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
• Merge per Elonka. Consensus is that POV forks are bad, mmkay? Stifle 11:38, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
• Merge per Elonka. --bainer (talk) 00:48, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.