Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Ki-o-rahi

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was stub and rewrite, if not done already. Essentially, keep. —Kurykh 23:58, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Ki-o-rahi

Ki-o-rahi (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) – (View log)

Unsourced, suspected hoax. The article appears to be a concoction, or at least the part of it purporting that the game is an old one based on traditional Māori legend. The translations for the some of the key words given are not consistent with the authoritative dictionaries of the Māori language, and the sources given appear to be personal websites with no authority, or unverifiable and unlikely television crew sources. Am also nominating The Legend of Rahi for the same reasons Kahuroa 02:35, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

• Note: This debate has been included in the list of New Zealand-related deletions. -- SimonLyall 01:45, 29 July 2007 (UTC)
• Delete This sounds like an obvious hoax to me Matt/TheFearow (Talk) (Contribs) (Bot) 01:52, 29 July 2007 (UTC) Changed to Keep and Rewrite, per the suggestions below.
• Delete. Support Kahuroa's position. Also, most of it is nonsense -- the second and third pars for example. Moriori 02:45, 29 July 2007 (UTC) Changed to Keep and Rewrite per suggestions. Moriori
• I agree most of it is nonsense. There are some reliable sources on the talk page (in particular [1]), so I suggest it be trimmed down to a stub containing only well-verified facts.-gadfium 19:48, 29 July 2007 (UTC)
• Delete as per nom. Harlowraman 09:19, 29 July 2007 (UTC)Changed to Keep and Rewrite, per the suggestions below. Harlowraman 05:00, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
• Modify the request? - As Moriori points out, a reliable source has been found for part of the article, so I agree with the suggestion that it be trimmed down to a stub containing just the verified facts - it seems that this is indeed a game played in very recent years, and that it also appears to lack any 'history' in Māori tradition. However, it also seems pretty clear that the article The Legend of Rahi has been part of an ongoing project to manufacture a 'traditional history' for it. If those who have voted above are agreeable to Moriori's suggestion, I will rewrite the article Kahuroa 10:22, 29 July 2007 (UTC)
• Stub and restart, avoiding the personal site [2] as a source - this seems rather similar to the case of Haggis hurling, a real sport with an invented tradition. Gordonofcartoon 13:37, 29 July 2007 (UTC)
• Stub and let Kahuroa restart as editor Kahuroa will be responsible researching and editing the topic, including, if it proves to be the case, the attempt to manufacture a traditional history. Let me know if I can help, but please begin editing any doubtful material right now--this does not require that you wait for this AfD and agreement if you already have found that some material is incorrect. KP Botany 16:45, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

Thanks, agree, will do. I think I would rather use the NZ Herald article that is mentioned on the talk page of the article as the source, rather than the personal webpage that User:Gordonofcartoon mentions above. This is because I strongly suspect that the personal webpage was given its information from the same person who is behind the article we are dealing with here. In the meantime I have removed some dubious references that the author inserted in the last 24 hours. I happened to have the book he cited, and there was nothing in it to support the claims made, so I removed the references and asked for page numbers. He has responded by basically blanking the page and ranting about me on the talk page. Anyway, I will rewrite it now as a stub Kahuroa 05:22, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

Done. Kahuroa 06:08, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

• Clear totally and rewrite from scratch, for great justice! McLarenJAB 14:37, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

From proper research we completed from Otago University the ki-o-rahi tournament in 2006 did not eventuate in Northland(!?), since when has a panui(notice) from any source seen as verifiable information? Otago uni did host a tournament last year however but it would be foolish to claim it was the "first". It appears as if Kahuroa is scraping the barrell with her ability to actually construct a viable stub here. Is Kahuroa going to continue to highlight any other schools in NZ which play ki-o-rahi? I understand several schools in her Tainui rohe also have a ki-o-orahi history including Waikato uni and Ngaaruawahia College, is she aware of this? 'Patu Hohepa' is discredited as being capable of commenting on traditional sports despite the NZ Herald angle - "waka ama" and "kapa haka" despite Kahuroa's assertion to the contrary, do not appear in traditional Maori literature either! There is a lot of fluff in this stubb but hardly any substance. A poor effort. sossos

We seem to be going around in circles here - the question is whether there are any old references to Ki-o-rahi that can be used here, not whether it is being played now, that is not disputed. Certainly many old games went unrecorded and were lost, and if Ki-o-rahi is one that survived from pre-European times, that would be, as Hohepa said, exciting, and could make this article really interesting. So I hope something can be found that was written in the interval from 1800 on. Point taken about the notice, I have removed that, leaving the Herald article as the only source supporting the article Kahuroa 00:24, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

• Stub and restart , Has pretty much happened already - SimonLyall 08:30, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

It is a shame the herald failed to contact more of the right people in their article on ki-o-rahi. The article seems to be written in a cynical way describing the game as being played in a 'few scattered locations' - it in effect suppresses and minimises traditional Maori ball game adherence and hardly celebrates the achievement of a Maori game being seen as worthwhile and educationally viable in the US curriculum! The article conveniently excludes the Manawatu stronghold where several thousand play! and Patu as a traditional sports commentator??? The ABM centre in South Auckland also has an 8 team league, as did Auckland East (8 teams) which started in the 1980s that expanded and called it by another name - typical of Maori games. Not forgetting our modest involvement in Dunedin.

However my biggest concern regarding your right really Kahuroa to be able to comment and scribe on this taonga Maori is how you could have missed the obvious typo - the Maori King Movement is from the 1870s NOT the 1970s. So are you going to correct that?

As you have just realised by looking up "waka ama" and "kapa haka", they did not exist traditionally, going by your criteria, because you cannot find even 1 reference to them in the 1800s.The same applies to ki-o-rahi, look up hapu specific names for the game. Also you will need to research via traditional weavers because their knowledges relate directly to the ancient ki (also kui, ta, etc ) or ball artefacts that are still woven today and are a direct, tangible, link to the ancient Maori ball game.

In this field a lot of bastardisation occurs because of tin pot researchers, no wonder the kaumatua will have as little to do with the media as possible. The article in yesterdays herald about Machu Pichu - all the local Peruvians knew where the ruins were but that wasn't official until Bingham 'discovered' them in 1913! pretty much sums up Maori awareness of our taonga (ball games) and Pakeha reaction to it.

I hazard to guess you are a little out of touch when it comes to Maori ball game traditions - perhaps you need to embrace your marae a little better? I am not going around in circles, you are, chasing your tail because it is obvious from your stub that you are restricted by buttons. You would be far safer just to leave up 'Ki-o-Rahi' as a heading and leave it as that for others to writeup properly. Your creedence in the Maori world could be affected if it gets out about the hatchet job your doing here, just as Patu became the laughing stock because of his naieve comments.

If kaumatua were regarded as 'genuine sources', on this site, as they are for example with the Waitangi Tribunal, then there would be a full appreciation on ki-o-rahi and you could simply walk on down to your local (Turangawaewae?) for some real education. I would guess you have a few letters behind your name? but no real understanding in this field? sossos

• Stub and restart per virtually everyone above me. Giggy ^{Talk | Review} 04:55, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

For Sossos: Just a few for you to start with. For KAPA HAKA Te Waka Maori o Ahuriri, 5 June 1856:10; Te Waka Maori o Aotearoa 9 May 1884:4; Te Tiupiri, 1 April 1900:8 (letter dated 26th. Tihema 1899); for WAKA AMA Nga Mahi a nga Tupuna, Grey, 1854 (Story of Māui); Maori Polynesian Comparative Dictionary, Edward Tregear, 1891, and Te Pipiwharauroa, He Kupu Whakamarama Tihema 1908:7. Kahuroa 07:56, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

Now Kahuroa who is trying to be clever? You have not provided any references above for specifically "WAKA AMA" (don't shorten it to just "waka") or "KAPA HAKA".The modern term,some assume, for haka is kapa haka. Kapa Haka is a relatively new word and waka ama is a Pasifika word for their form of boat racing. Read up on Karetu and the doubts expressd in his book about the traditional relevance of "kapa haka" today having any relevance to "haka" of yesteryear. Many Kaumatua firmly believe kapa haka is really just modern dance bereft of traditional tikanga. Waka ama was NEVER practiced traditionally. I'm just trying to provide an analogy here with traditional ball sports. Hop down to your marae, put in your specific ball game name and then see how you go. In the article I started I simply substituted the modern term ki-o-rahi, the accepted generalised term these days for all trad. Maori ball sports, instead of the myriad of traditional names - some of which certain hapu don't want splashed about anyway. You are seriously floundering in this field, you need the ahua, not the button pushing power to do a resonable job on this subject. The above references are a laugh and Tregear? sossos

In fact these are old traditional Māori words, and these are valid references. Waka ama is a genuine Māori term. Our tupuna did not use waka ama as much as in Pasifika, but they did have them. Although they were becoming rare by Cook's time, waka ama are mentioned in old waiata for one thing! Here's the link to an old waiata in a Pipiwharauroa issue. Waka ama is highlighted in yellow, and if you click on the WHAKAAHUA NUI link you can see how it appeared in the original newspaper of 1908. There is a even brief mention of waka ama/outrigger canoes in New Zealand around the time of Cook on page 87 of Vaka Moana -Voyages of the Ancestors a brand new 2007 book which should be in most bookstores right now if you want to take a look. Anyway, I won't reply on this page anymore since I think that its probably time to close this. Kahuroa 11:17, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.