Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Khachkar destruction

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was Keep -- Chrislk02 (Chris Kreider) 21:27, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Khachkar destruction

Khachkar destruction (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) – (View log)

This article is a POV fork for Nakhichevan. Grandmaster 12:34, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

• Keep - How is it a POV fork? this article describes the destruction of Khachkars, those images are clear proof, this is located there but it is different, silliness. Artaxiad 12:36, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
• Delete per nom. This issue is addressed in Nakhichevan and Julfa articles, this is a POV fork. Grandmaster 12:41, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
  • Are you not yourself the nom? -- Black Falcon 08:09, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
    • I am. This is my first nomination, am I not allowed to vote? Grandmaster 08:13, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
      • You are, of course--although technically AfD is not a vote ;) . The nomination itself counts as a "delete" and many nominators add a bolded "delete" following their nominations (for visual clarity, to make additional comments, or to specify that they support deletion instead of redirecting or merging, for instace). I was just trying to clarify whether you were the actual nominator or just the first to comment. In retrospect, I could simply have checked the edit history to confirm that you created the AfD. Cheers, Black Falcon 08:29, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
• Delete or significantly ammend. For example, this POV page does not include the important article from a leading Armenian HETQ magazine - [1] about Armenians' destroying their own khachkars and cultural heritage -- and since the Hetq story compares this to khachkar (cross-stones or head-stones, common to Armenians and Caucasian Albanians of the region) destruction in Naxcivan, it was relevant.

What is interesting, there are more admissions of khachkars being destroyed by Armenians themselves, especially around their capital of Yerevan -- for example, at this specialized khachkar website - [2]

"Endangered Khachkars in Armenia and Artsakh It is particularly tragic that khachkars are also endangered in Armenia and Artsakh. They are disappearing, being damaged or moved. Most endangered are the old khachkar fields located near today’s graveyards, where khachkars are being eradicated for the creation of new burial space. The “crown of thorns” belongs to the khachkar field in Arinch near Yerevan. The situation is threatening in Noratus as well, where new burials are encroaching upon the khachkar field from at least three sides. The old graveyard of Areni is in almost the same situation. The movement of khachkars voluntarily by different individuals is a widespread practice. In some cases this is done to allegedly create a new holy place, for example, the case of Karmir Dalakner of Gegharquniq region where the khachkar was brought from Karvachar. Another case of moved khachkars is due to the decoration of new offices and especially entertainment establishments, as for example in the Vank village in Karabakh. The third and the most condemning practice is when khachkars are merely disappearing to decorate individual yards and houses. Khachkars are being damaged also by believers, worshipers and casual visitors, who light candles on them or write their names on them or engage in rituals that are damaging the carvings." See gallery of photos here - [3]

Moreover, the destruction of cultural heritage (or Cultural Genocide, as some Armenians dubbed it) in Armenia, like elsewhere, has reached dangerous proportions and led to many protests both in press and in streets -- [4], [5], [6], and [7]

Hence, if the Armenian and pro-Armenian view on destruction of khachkars by allegedly Azerbaijanis and allegedly in Naxcivan is to be included, then a contrarian view should be included too -- not just Azerbaijan's denial of wrongdoing by the government, but Armenians' own admission of breaking, destroying and otherwise mishandling their own khachkars on their own territory. --AdilBaguirov 13:02, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

Indeed, if the article is about destruction of khackars in general, it should include info on such destruction in Armenia, if it is to be limited to Nakhichevan, it is POV fork. Grandmaster 13:10, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

• Keep Fully sourced, verifiable and extremely notable. In the top 5 of the biggest Armenian related stories of last year.-- Ευπάτωρ ^Talk!! 13:09, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

• This AfD nomination was incomplete. It is listed now. DumbBOT 14:14, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

• Delete This subject should be dealt in pages related to Nagorno-Karabakh War and in complex with other issues, for example, the destruction of Azerbaijani cultural heritage on occupied Azerbaijani territories. Thus the balance approach will be provided for. Moreover, issue of Khachkar has been already addressed on some other pages.--Dacy69 16:27, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
• Delete because as I saw all references are to armenian sources and one iranian source, which uses the word Arran instead our official and OURS name Azerbaijan thus showing that it is completely biased and prejudiced. And coming to the video, It is not completely evident that those people are Azerbaijanis, it can be a constructed scene and imitation, how many times we have met such fake videos? I have watched that film from youtube, it must be viewed by a professional video master in order to be examined. I think this dispute should be solved by so simple procedure, Armenian MFa should ask any Internatioanl organisation and that organisation should conduct an official investigation with the Azeri and Armenian MFAs and if they can find any proof that that destruction was done , then please. Elsanaturk 19:38, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
• Comment - Grandmaster you don't get a vote first of all, second these are all Turks so obviously they would want this deleted.Artaxiad 19:58, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

I doubt you will keep your word here is an English source, now change your vote, [8] Artaxiad 08:49, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

Artaxiad, personal attacks are unacceptable, and ethnic attacks are no exception. Please don't do that ever again. Picaroon 00:09, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

• Keep This article should not be deleted because it is very informative including the pictures and it is also fully sourced. The only reason that this article was listed for deletion by user Grandmaster is because currently there is a conflict between Armenian-Azerbaijani users and lot of edit waring in many Armenian-Azerbaijani related pages. This is a type of retaliation agains Armenian users and Armenian related articles, which I think is not the right thing to do by retaliating each other. ROOB323 21:01, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

• Speedy Keep per all. I am surprised this article did not exist already. This is certainly a very important event as it is Ethnocide committed by a government. It was and still is big news in the Armenian world and 3rd party groups have condemned it. Denying this article is like denying the event, which was captured on video by an Armenian. - Fedayee 21:24, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

• Delete Even though it seems that almost all those who have asked for it to be deleted are doing so for very questionable motives (to say the least), it does not get around the fact that the article duplicates what is already on the page for Julfa and adds nothing new to the subject. Moreover, the article's title is meaningless since it is too general to apply to just the destruction at Julfa, and too object specific to apply to the wider destruction of Armenian cultural artifacts. Meowy 23:32, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

• Delete The khachkar issue is addressed in at least a dozen articles, including Nakhichevan, Julfa, Khachkar, Anti-Armenianism, Cultural genocide, Nagorno-Karabakh War, etc. Parishan 00:12, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

• Keep The event in Julfa was one of top five news in Armenian community. It deserves its own article. Khachkar/Church destruction is one of the major events during and after Nagorno-Karabakh war. It's considered as cultural genocide. Vartanm 01:00, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

• Delete. Yet another redunant piece of false Armenian propaganda. The whole idea is based on a video with very low resolution, where it's barely visible who people are and what they're doing, leave it alone whether those were really Azerbaijani soldiers or not was never proven by credible evidence. It's an unfounded accusation, especially in light of Khojaly Massacre, clearly a crime against humanity, 15th anniversary of which is actually today, a crime which Armenian side still denies. Atabek 01:36, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

News of the existance of this discussion is doing the rounds on various Azeri and Armenian message boards - so I expect there will be much more of the above type of comments that entirely miss the point. The destruction of the Julfa grveyard is an accepted fact that has been fully documented. The issue here is whether the "Khachkar destruction" page is suitable to be an entry in wikipedia. Meowy 20:54, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

• Keep per Vartanm. -- Davo88 01:58, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
• Strong keep when an article is objected to as 'another false piece of [X] propaganda' I see it as an admission of N in the article, and of bias in the objector. I think possibly some additional sources should be added to the article about possible destruction by other groups, if there are such sources, and the article should perhaps cite specific reported events, but that's for the talk page. Attempts at suppression on political grounds tend to backfire if seen by those outside the controversy.DGG 02:50, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

Have you read all other articles on the same topic? How come it is a supression of info, if this info was described in a number of articles about the region? Grandmaster 09:02, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

I've recommended, that if we are to keep this article, then it should be expanded to include not only all the counter-claims (by the other side), but the significant evidence and pictures of Armenians themselves engaged in destruction of their historic heritage. Otherwise, it is obviously POV. Moreover, perhaps this article can become more comprehensive, and become "Destruction of cultural and historic heritage in South Caucasus", where we can include all the claims and counter-claims of Georgians -- such as 19th century Ilya Chavchavadze book about Armenians mishandling Georgian Churches and graves. I think there are some more evidence from Soviet academics about Urartu heritage being physically "rebranded" by some ultra-nationalists. All this would make a better quality article as would give a full picture to the readers. --AdilBaguirov 07:48, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I agree, I'm inclined to change my vote now. Grandmaster 07:52, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

Just a comment/word of caution: a Destruction of cultural and historic heritage in South Caucasus might be overly broad (in terms of groups involved, the timespan, and also the range of objects included in "heritage"). However, I recognize that to be an issue up to the discretion of those editors who are actually involved in writing the article(s). -- Black Falcon 08:32, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

I would think narrowing the scope of the issue to Khachkar destruction in Nakhichevan would minimize the potential for future POV disputes. -- Black Falcon 08:35, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

I actually think that if we make a separate article on this, it should cover all instances of such destruction, not limiting it to a certain area. We have articles that reflect the controversy on Julfa cemetery, however other instances of such destruction received no coverage so far. This article may fill the void. Grandmaster 13:11, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

• Strong keep. The issue has received multiple international coverage and is the subject of a dispute between two countries. I think that easily qualifies its notability as a separate article. Armenia says it happened, Azerbaijan says it didn't, and a variety of international organisations/observers have confirmed and/or questioned its occurrence (for the most part, the incident has been confirmed). The article should reflect this controversy so that there are no POV issues. Based on their comments, a number of editors seem to be personally motivated either for or against this article. If there is POV in the article, clean it up. But the fact that this issue has received so much attention and controversy means that it qualifies as having its own article (aside from a notice in Nakhichevan). Content disputes should be addressed on the talk page, not at AfD. -- Black Falcon 00:50, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
  • This article is not going to be about what allegedly happened in Nakhichevan, but about any destruction, be that in Azerbaijan, Armenia or elsewhere, as the title is very general. As for Nakhichevan, if this article is to be kept, then I think we should remove duplicate info from the article about Julfa, because what is the point in having the same information pasted in many articles? Grandmaster 07:35, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
    • You raise good points, which I admit I had not considered. However, I believe both issues can be addressed without deleting this article. The first issue can be easily solved through a page-move, such as moving the page to Khachkar destruction in Nakhichevan. As for your second point, a certain degree of duplication across articles is necessary. For instance, the History of Germany article should obviously discuss World War II, Adolf Hitler, and even Angela Merkel. The destruction of the khackhars (or to take a wholly neutral view, the dispute regarding the destruction of khackars) is an important part of the Julfa's history. I do agree, however, that the section in the article about Julfa should be reduced in length if the "Khachkar destruction" article exists/is kept. Articles should cross-reference each other, but they should not replicate large portions of one another. Cheers, Black Falcon 07:54, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
      • Thanks for your response. Right now I'm inclined to keep the article under its current name and split it into sections about various instances of real or alleged khachkar destruction. I think that might be the best way to deal with this issue. But I still have not made up my mind yet. Grandmaster 08:06, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
• Keep. Per norm --Rayis 12:32, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
  • The nom was to delete :) Grandmaster 12:34, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
• Keep but I suggest that we rename this to Status of Armenian cultural monuments in Nakhichevan. That way the article will be more objective and at the same time it won't be covering just the khachkar issue in Julfa. -- Aivazovsky 13:30, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
  • And avoid mentioning destruction of khachkars in Armenia? Grandmaster 13:38, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

Well, the article was never created with the intention of mentioning the destruction of any cultural monuments in Armenia. However, you took a liberal interpretation of its title to your advantage and made this an issue. It's just become one big mess.

I personally think that the creation of this entire article was irresponsible in light of the RfA mediation currently being worked out between Armenian and Azeri editors. -- Aivazovsky 13:43, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

This article was created as a POV fork, however it can be actually a good place to present information on various aspects of this issue, which were purged from articles on Nakhichevan and Julfa. I agree that this article should not have been creaed at this time, same as purging wikipedia of Azerbaijan related images and many other actions of a certain person. But what's done is done. Grandmaster 13:50, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

"Purging wikipedia of Azerbaijan related images?" I think that as a first step towards working out our differences we shouldn't use such strong words. We need to replace suspicion with trust.

I still say that the best move for this article would be to rename it to Status of Armenian cultural monuments in Nakhichevan. -- Aivazovsky 13:54, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

How about Status of Armenian cultural monuments in South Caucasus?

How about Status of Armenian cultural monuments including Turkey, Iran and Georgia. This way the article wont focus only on Azerbaijan. Vartanm 00:51, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

I still say that we should just move it to Status of Armenian cultural monuments in Nakhichevan and be done with it. -- Aivazovsky 12:25, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

Strong Keep This is not a POV fork, if anything it's more favorable towards the Azerbaijan postion than the article it's claimed to be a fork of. Article is sourced. Nominator in his 13:50 post has stated a goal of purging wikipedia of edits he disagrees with. Edward321 14:13, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

Where did I say anything like that? Can you please provide the exact quote? Thanks. Grandmaster 14:16, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

Strong KeepThe article describes intentional destruction with purposeful aim of destruction of a nations heritage - cultural genocide. The destruction of 19th century Yerevan is done with the AIM of development and through corruption, etc ... Example of neglect and corruption rather than attempt by Armenians to eradicate their own history. Destruction might be comprable to what happened in grand central station. (Hetoum 07:50, 8 March 2007 (UTC))

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.