Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Kasey Kiker

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was Delete Although Branson03 makes some impassioned argument, the counter arguments are strong, and the consensus here seems clear, this ball player is not notable. And even if the consensus was not clear, marginal notability BLPs really ought to be deleted. ++Lar: t/c 16:37, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Kasey Kiker

Kasey Kiker (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) (delete) – (View log)

Very non-notable baseball player. Notability comes in the Major Leagues, he's still pretty low in the minors. Wizardman 19:43, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

Keep He plays in a professional league, which is notable according to WP:N. Many other minor league players have articles about them. Branson03 (talk) 19:53, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS. Plus, the notability policy states "competitors and coaches who have competed in a fully professional league" are notable. Fully professional = Major League Baseball, not the minor leagues. Wizardman 19:56, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
Fully Professional Baseball is not limited to MLB. Branson03 (talk) 20:26, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
I agree with Branson03 on this point. The minor leagues are "fully professional". Kinston eagle (talk) 20:53, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
True, there's also the Cuban League, the Central League in Japan, etc. The minor leagues do not count under fully professional. If they were they wouldn't continuous fold and move to different major league teams all the time. Wizardman 20:53, 14 April 2008 UTC)

Delete: The standard for WP:BIO requires that a person has been the subject of published secondary source material which is reliable, intellectually independent, and independent of the subject, and Kiker meets that standard:[1], although there's not much evidence of that in the article as it is. The standard for WP:ATHLETE requires that a person has played in a professional league which Kiker has done. The standards for notability by WP:BASEBALL standards for minor leaguers is: "Have played in at least a whole season in AAA baseball, played in the All-Star Futures Game, won a notable Minor League Baseball award, or been selected for any minor league baseball All-star game in the affiliated minor leagues." From the information at hand, I don't see where Kiker has accomplished any of those things. Should someone find evidence of one of those standards being met, I would be more than happy to change my Delete to a Keep as I am an inclusionist who would like to keep all minor league baseball players. But, we have to live with the compromises that were arrived at through consensus. Kinston eagle (talk) 20:08, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

WP:BASEBALL has suggested guidelines and are not policy. You say Kiker met WP:ATHLETE (which is in WP:BIO), which is one of the suggested guidelines written by the Baseball WikiProject. Branson03 (talk) 20:26, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
It took a very long time for me and some others to wring those suggested guidelines out of the wikiproject. Prior to them, ALL minor league players were being deleted routinely. One had to play in a major league game to be considered notable. I am all for opening up the standards, but until they become more open, I will abide by the compromise arrived at through consensus and apply the 3 prong test for minor leaguers: WP:BIO - WP:ATHLETE - WP:BASEBALL. The standards now are actually much more open than they were last summer. Since that time many new minor league player articles have been written and kept and some have survived the chopping block thanks to the new suggested guidelines. They are working, and until they stop working, I will abide by them. Kinston eagle (talk) 20:52, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
WP:BIO, WP:ATHLETE, you said that he is considered notable according to those guidelines. According to WP:BASEBALL, if any player meets WP:BIO, that player is considered notable. Because you already said he is notable according to WP:BIO, he must be notable under WP:BASEBALL. Branson03 (talk) 21:23, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
  • Delete Is A-level minor league baseball really fully professional? This definitely doesn't pass WP:BIO, and there's no way that he can pass the ideas of WP:BASEBALL. Nyttend (talk) 01:02, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
If you read what User:Kinston eagle wrote, you would see how it passes WP:BIO, if it passes WP:BIO, it passes WP:BASEBALL, according to the notability guidelines. Fully professional means not part time, playing baseball may seem to be only 3 hours a day, but it is a lot more with practice, workouts, and lessons from more experienced players. Playing in MiLB is not a part time job. Maybe Rookie or Short Season leagues are part time, but A, High A, AA, and AAA are full time. Branson03 (talk) 01:14, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

Delete per current guidelines. No awards, all-star appearances, only brief "A" ball appearances. Spanneraol (talk) 15:59, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

He has won awards, although not very notable (pitcher of the week). He played in a High School All-American All-Star Game. It has only been 10 games into the California League season, he will finish the season in High A, unless he gets promoted to AA. Delete per what current guidelines, he meets all current guidelines I have read. Branson03 (talk) 17:49, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
Kiker passes WP:BIO - must be published by a reliable secondary source: [2] - Done
Kiker passes WP:ATHLETE - compete in a fully professional league - California League - Done
Kiker passes WP:BASEBALL standards - Meets the requirements for WP:BIO - Done
As you can see, Kiker is notable according to all related guidelines and policies. Branson03 (talk) 18:04, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
High School All-Stars games are not currently accepted by WP:BASEBALL. There has been much debate about if "A" ball would be considered "fully professional" and there certainly isn't complete agreement on that matter. WP:BASEBALL has specific guidelines in addition to the bio guidelines for the very reason to clarify which minor leaguers should be included. Previously the answer was none, we have lots of them now.. but they need to be more established than this guy. Spanneraol (talk) 18:42, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
WP:BASEBALL guidelines are not policy and therefore need not be followed. Kiker is the #8 prospect in the Rangers organization which I can say makes him notable [3], the same way you say playing in High A doesn't make him notable. Just because other High A players don't have articles about them, it isn't a reason to delete this article. Just as Wizardman pointed out, the fact that other High-A players have articles about them isn't a reason to keep Kasey Kiker. This AFD is for Kasey Kiker, not for all High-A players. So you shouldn't say delete just because he plays in High A, which you think is not notable enough, even if he is notable enough to pass WP:BIO [4]. Branson03 (talk) 20:27, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
  • Delete - I disagree with the argument that he meets WP:BIO, which includes the statement, "If the depth of coverage is not substantial, then multiple independent sources may be needed to prove notability; trivial coverage of a subject by secondary sources may not be sufficient to establish notability." The articles from the Google News search generally include only brief/trivial mentions of Kiker (he hurt his arm, he was assigned to Bakersfield), not enough to source an article that is more than a stub. (I also note that there are WP:V problems in the current version of the article, which doesn't cite all of its sources.) There certainly is not a consensus that players in minor league baseball meet WP:ATHLETE—even though the players are paid (making them literally professional), the leagues are essentially a training program for the major leagues, which I don't think represents the intent of the criteria of a "fully professional" league. I think that the notability standards set by WP:BASEBALL represent a reasonable compromise and I support them. Kiker doesn't meet these notability standards. The article can be reintroduced when he meets the notability criteria. BRMo (talk) 23:28, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
I'm not even sure why I'm bothering to save this article. I didn't write it, and only edited it once before it was nominated. I don't really feel like trying to prove that he is notable anymore, I can wait until he makes an all star game this year or some other year. The one thing we should learn from this is to make the WP:ATHLETE standards clearer... What exactly is a "fully" professional league? That should be decided for WP:ATHLETE, and not WP:BASEBALL's guidelines. If AAA is the only level of fully professional baseball, all articles about AA, High A, A, Short Season, and Rookie baseball players should be deleted, because they are ONLY considered notable if they compete in a "fully" professional league. Branson03 (talk) 02:06, 16 April 2008 (UTC)


The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.