Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/KONGER

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. Can't sleep, clown will eat me 05:10, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] KONGER

KONGER (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) – (View log)

Seems to be a more minor group, I had prodded however seperate user objected, so here we are at AFD. Matt - TheFearow 23:09, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

I oppose to the deletion for the following reasons: the group had a huge influence on Polish performance art, the artists who belonged to it are still alive, active and internationally recognized. Most of them have their pages on the Polish version of Wikipedia. Because the Group acted in Poland under the Martial law, it could not have been noticed abroad, as people were not allowed to travel, the galleries were closed or boycotted and any trace of artistic / politically engaged activity was persecuted. Hence the heroism and importance of the Group.--ZenDl 23:12, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

I do not understand what makes you think that this is a "more minor group". I would be happy to improve the Article. --ArtInterventions 23:14, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

This seemed to be a more minor group from page - if you can improve please do, as to me and other unrelated editors it appears to fail notability. If that issue can be fixed then I would vote Keep. Matt - TheFearow 23:21, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

Please, bear in mind, that in case of art, and especially performance art it would not be possible to find any criteria why a person or a group should be notable or not. There are no awards, ranking lists or anything like that. Try to imagine, that we are talking about the times of curfew, secret services, militia, censorship and so on and that these people simply risked being persecuted for trying to express their thoughts about the political situation. The only way to do it was to act together. If you think there are any objective criteria that would convince you that those people were notable artists, please, let me know, as I (and other unrelated editors) am under the impression that you do not quite get the historical context and that you're looking for some typical elements that are not possible to include. I would really like to be able to satisfy Wikipedia policy. Best regards. --ArtInterventions 00:55, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

  • Comment. You could always look at the end all notability guideline, WP:N. Non-trivial coverage in multiple, independent, reliable sources. Newspaper articles, interviews or other coverage from major news broadcasters, etc. Personally, I'm not sure what to make of the cited references, their being in polish and all. Someguy1221 06:41, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

This is exactly what I am talking about - how are you going to find references in newspapers or major broadcasters while they were in the hands of the communist regime? It is like trying to find the news about the opposition in China or North Korea. Officially they don't exist! I could find hundreds of articles in Wikipedia that do not cite any sources or I think are far less notable. The sources that I cite I think are reliable, I can find some more, but they all would be in Polish anyway. I encourage you to learn foreign languages... --ArtInterventions 11:34, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

  • Delete in that case. If no reliable sources exist, how are we supposed to write a reliable article? In addition to the notability guideline, there is verifiability to consider. Someguy1221 15:18, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
  • Changing to keep, as my comment below has come true. Someguy1221 08:52, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
  • No, I think my sources are reliable and you think that the only reliable sources are major news broadcasters. This is a bizarre opinion given the political circumstances the article is about. --ArtInterventions 16:43, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
  • PS. If you bothered to download the source article (in Fort Sztuki Magazine) you wouldn't even have to be able to read in Polish to be able to verify some of the information given. --ArtInterventions 16:53, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment. I never said those are the only reliable sources, just giving you the best possible examples when you seemed to be questioning how to prove notability. And if all the sources are in a language I can't read, I certainly can't verify it, now can I? If some members of the Polish wikiproject bother to get involved, I'll withdraw my suggestion for delete. Someguy1221 03:48, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
  • It is quite sad and deeply discouraging that you only accept sources in English as credible... --ArtInterventions 21:57, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment. Again, you misread my statement. I said that I cannot verify anything from Polish sources. Fortunately, there are Wikipedians who speak Polish, and there's actually a portal (right here) through which you might find one. Again, I cannot verify anything with only Polish sources, but I'll usually trust any established multilingual wikipedian who thinks it's OK. Someguy1221 18:16, 10 June 2007 (UTC)
  • Weak keep. I was going to say delete, but it has article on pl wiki, and is mentioned in a few publications. A historical footnote, but seems to be notable after all. Unfortunatly with the amount of spam about artists we are getting its hard to pick up such stuff :( -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk  20:10, 10 June 2007 (UTC)
  • I think the article should stay. The group was a sensation in the 80s. The sources about that time in Poland are scarce and you won't find much on the Internet in English either, for obvious reasons. I think it's important to make that obscure time available to the English speakers. The artists and witnesses of their activity are still alive, so the information given is possible to verify. --ZenDl 23:49, 10 June 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep. I took the liberty of rewriting the article according to some basic Wiki standards and I moved it to a more English language title. Please take a look. --Poeticbent talk 00:53, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
  • Looks much better. Thanks so much! I hope it will stay... --ArtInterventions 00:58, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep as per guidelines WP:MUSIC - this time I'm citing the proper phrase verbatim: "Contains at least one member who was once a part of or later joined a band that is otherwise notable; note that it is often most appropriate to use redirects in place of articles on side projects, early bands and such". We've got here not one but even two members, who are notable - see Wladyslaw Kazmierczak and Peter Grzybowski - both are in English wikipedia. Also, check it out, that they didn't even make it to Polish wikipedia, which is otherwise run by a bunch of 14 years olds or so, mostly descendants of families, who once condoned martial law mentioned in this very article, and hardly a reliable source of information. greg park avenue 14:15, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.