Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/K. C. Armstrong

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was No consensus. Cbrown1023 talk 22:24, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] K. C. Armstrong

K. C. Armstrong (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) – (View log)

Fails WP:BIO. Subject has not been the "subject of secondary sources that are reliable, intellectually independent, and independent of the subject." Only sources are from show rundowns, personal webpages, and other sources within the Howard Stern universe. —Ocatecir ^Talk 16:02, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

• Delete per nom. It's impossible to get reliable sources on this one. --Bill.matthews 16:49, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

• Passes WP:BIO, a number of factors:

1. Producer AND primary character (differentiating from whack pack) on the Howard Stern show, currently a stand alone entrepreneur and entertainer
2. I disagree that rundowns are not "reliable, intellectually independent, and independent of the subject" - there are actually two key writeups, both the one on the main stern site, howard stern, but also on marksfriggin. Take a moment to review the depth, detail and rigorousness of this latter "rundown". While you may disagree the show warrants this level of obsession - with daily show summaries that are typically 5+ pages long and with a 10 year daily archive - its hard to argue that it is not reliable and intellectually independent. In fact, I would further argue that the message boards act as a level of peer review on marksfriggin, as they rapidly correct any errors
3. There is a separate, stand-alone KC database providing details of his original tenure on the Howard Stern show: KC Database
4. Film and TV credits on IMDB: imdb
5. I also disagree that show recordings should not be considered sources. In this era, insisting that only text references count seems quaint, especially as Google and the other search behemoths zero in on indexing audio, video and image sources. Are Oprah, the Fox talking heads, the nightly news anchors not sources? If so, why not a radio show?
6. If the above is not persuasive, I note there is a particularly relevent exception to the primary criterion for notability cited by Ocatecir above:

• • "Entertainers: actors, comedians, opinion makers, and television personalities
    • With significant roles in notable films, television, stage performances, and other productions.
    • Has a large fan base or a significant "cult" following.
    • Has made unique, prolific or innovative contributions to a field of entertainment."

KC hits all three. He had / has a significant role on the Howard Stern Radio and TV shows, one of the most popular and successful radio shows in history. He has a large fan base and "cult" follow, and he has made unique and prolific contributions to the Howard Stern show.

I further refer people to the Talk:K._C._Armstrong. Prior VFD and NPOV arguments have been rejected, and I think many of the reasons remain persuasive.

Final note - this is the first time I've engage in a VFD debate, while I have reviewed the precedents, I may still have made some unitentional faux pas', so apologize in advance.

Nowhitenoise 21:34, 24 April 2007 (UTC) — Nowhitenoise (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

• Weak keep. While it probably is possible to create a properly sourced article about K.C., I'm having trouble finding good sources myself. He was once a significant member of the on-air cast of The Howard Stern Show although his fame seems to have decreased in recent years due to his departure from the show. If the article isn't kept, it at least should be merged to an appropriate article about The Howard Stern Show or a related topic. --Metropolitan90 05:41, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

• KEEP - KC is known by millions and deserves to be included in an encyclopedia of this size. As to reliable sources, millions hear the shows, including reruns each Friday which include KC and which include phone calls which update us on KCs status. Mark's Friggin is a primary reference. This page should be expanded and sourced to Stern show broadcasts, not deleted. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 192.91.147.35 (talk • contribs) 13:00, April 26, 2007 (UTC)

• Merge to The Howard Stern Show. No reliable sources evident to support an article seemingly composed of trivial events and radio bits. Serial incompetence does not equate to notability. Caknuck 07:34, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

• delete or merge as above - no independent sources. Nowhitenoise, I value the points you make, but I've found in AfD debates that the Wikipedia community doesn't typically consider those things enough to prove a following - you have to prove that the outside world (outside of this following) has called him notable. If, say, he was featured on 60 Minutes, I bet that would be persuasive. Although I suspect he's had his 15 minutes and won't achieve that level of fame ever again. AllGloryToTheHypnotoad 16:50, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

• Strong delete, with respect to Nowhitenoise for a good argument. The thing is, this is a biography of a living person, not an article about a character on a show. As a character on a show, he's clearly important enough, but the article is a biography, and includes some rather negative claims with nothing to back them up. I actually think the guy might be notable enough for an article, but we need to find the reliable sources first and write the article after that. Mangojuice^talk 19:04, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.