Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Justin Zimmerman

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete per consensus of established users. --Coredesat 04:46, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Justin Zimmerman

Justin Zimmerman (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) – (View log)

Delete He is a non-notable filmmaker. Making one or two or even 10 films doesn't inherently make you worthy of an encyclopedia entry. Anybody who's gone to film school will end up making films, but they aren't wikipedia worthy just because they've made films. The article claims he is nationally recognized as a filmmaker and director, but the source is a biography from imdb. ImDb is not a credible source for wikipedia notoriety. Other information about him is sourced from Justin Zimmerman's own webpage brickerdown.com which he controls the content for. Many other claims are not sourced at all. And a long list of tiny festivals that accepted films does not make the filmmaker notable. The fact that none of those claims are sourced is almost irrelevant because the festivals arent even notable and most he didn't even win. Worldfamousdirector 02:08, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

• Keep I do appreciate the dedication to maintaining Wikipedia standards, but I believe this article should be kept. Please allow me to address the above concerns here, and where they are repeated below. "He is a non-notable filmmaker" : Zimmerman is a professional filmmaker, not a student. Outside sources (Filmakers Library Page “Filmakers Library Page”, Telly Award Site), verify his awards(re:"none of those claims are sourced"), and grants (OAC)(re:"Anybody who's gone to film school will end up making films"). For notability, "Liljas Library" and "Stephen King films site"show that he has a script that is approved by Stephen King for production. Can you please explain why an industry standard website, IMDB, often linked from within Wikipedia (eg Dustin_Hoffman) is not a 'credible source'?Timothynolan 00:51, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
  • reply about Zimmerman being professional "Zimmerman is a professional filmmaker, not a student" - Irrelevant. There are thousands and thousands of professional filmmakers in the world. This does not make them notable. Also your claims of notability include student films he made while he was a student. ))Worldfamousdirector 08:44, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
  • REPLY about being a professional It seems that most of Zimmerman's film awards and entries into HIGHLY SELECTED AND COMPETITIVE FESTS - hence, awards - occurred after he graduated with his MFA. Yet why would we at Wikipedia fault him for winning awards before he graduated with his master's? Isn't this a good thing? HedwigROX— Hedwigrox (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
  • Explanation "Can you please explain why an industry standard website, IMDB, often linked from within Wikipedia (eg Dustin_Hoffman) is not a 'credible source" - Read up on wikipedia sourcing and requirements for inclusion on wikipedia. Information on imdb, like your biography of Zimmerman, is not considered credible since imdb is mass-edited with little oversight. There is absolutely no fact checking of the mini-bio that you wrote. Worldfamousdirector 07:38, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
  • Explanation "You're mixing criticisms here, but imdb researches every entry and individual and uses fact-checking and source-based approval for all film entries. HedwigRox —Preceding unsigned comment added by Hedwigrox (talk • contribs) 15:22, 22 October 2007 (UTC) — Hedwigrox (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
  • Stephen King gives his short stories away for a dollar - It is not notable that Zimmerman has a script approved by Stephen King. He will approve any student as he says here "I will grant any student filmmaker the right to make a movie out of any short story I have written." Worldfamousdirector 08:44, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
  • REPLY Stephen King gives his short stories away for a dollar - A minor amount of research shows that Zimmerman was awarded the COMMERCIAL rights to the King story - not the nonexclusive rights. A couple more links show that he wrote multiple drafts of a feature length screenplay for the author - several of which the author personal approved for distribution. This is, by definition, NOTABLE. RESEARCH BEFORE YOU POST. HedwigROX— Hedwigrox (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
• Delete - he is on the verge of being somewhat notable, but not there yet. Iamchrisryan 12:49, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
• Delete - there is nothing to distinguish his body of work from that of any other 30-year-old film maker. He is still at the very start of his career.Racepacket 16:08, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
• Keep most young filmmakers don't have so many awards. Well-sourced. Bearian 17:25, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
  • And most young filmmakers aren't notable and don't have encyclopedic entries either.Worldfamousdirector 02:56, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
  • Additional information about awards he won - According to his wikipedia page, he's won 6 festival awards. A closer look shows that the two "Best Film" awards are from the "Western Film & Video Showcase". This is an event that HE HIMSELF RUNS. link It's also not even a festival. It's an event HE created to showcase his students films and, clearly, his own. Even more of a reason for a strong delete.Worldfamousdirector 03:08, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
  • Even more about his festivals Here's a news artical that reveals Justin Zimmerman not only put together the Western Film & Video Showcase, but that he's also on the board of directors of the Crested Butte Reel Fest. "Zimmerman....a member of the Crested Butte Reel Fest Board of Directors, recently organized the first Western Film and Video Showcase which featured some of his work in addition to student productions." Looking at his page you'll see that those two festivals account for more than 11 of his "Awards" It's easy to get into festivals when you're putting them on yourself. Worldfamousdirector 03:23, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
  • Examination of Festival (to further Keep decision) First, only 11 of the 48 awards come from the festivals in question. Second, professors are often awarded by their own Colleges/Universities/institutions for such awards as "Researcher of the year" or selected for publication in school-published magazines without any negative connotations to the award. As in this case, such awards are determined by an outside panel to avoid such concerns.Timothynolan 00:51, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
    • Only 11 of 48? Claiming 11 awards from festivals you created or are in control of indicates bad faith and it doesn't matter because being accepted to a festival is NOT and AWARD. Also getting an award only from your own college or getting published in a school-published magazine as you say, would not make you notable either. Please read the guidelines for notablility WP:N Having people you know write an artical about you doesn't make you notable for wikipedia. Worldfamousdirector 07:38, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
  • Examination of Festival (to further Keep decision) Simple checking of sources notes that Zimmerman's awards include Telly Awards, inclusion on NPT, independently judged and juried entries into competitive fests, etc. This seems promising to me...HedwigROX— Hedwigrox (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
• Delete sourced but non of them seems reliable or non-trivial. Fails WP:RS Jbeach56 01:15, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
• Keep, sourced and extensive awards list indicating notability. Best, --Le Grand Roi des Citrouilles^Tally-ho! 17:00, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
  • Question How can you say there are extensive awards? There are 48 entries under "Awards" but 75% of those aren't awards at all. An official selection is not an award. And at least eleven of the awards listings are from organizations that he is in control of. How can you say it's sourced when it's only his own brickerdown.com website or imdb that corraborates this information? There is no independent information that most of the entries under "awards" actually exist at all. Not even the user edited imDB list any awards for most of these films but on his wikipedia page they have multiple awards? Makes no sense. Not reliably sourced. Worldfamousdirector 19:19, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
    • Answer How you can say there are extensive awards: Outside sources (Filmakers Library Page “Filmakers Library Page”, Telly Award Site), verify his awards(repeat from above, as question is repeated).Timothynolan 00:51, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
      • The telly is only one of those 48 awards that are claimed and the Filmakers Filmakers Library page does not verify anything. It is a small website selling educational films and has a typed list of 6 awards for one film but some of the awards don't even have years listed. This does not verify at all. I do believe he won the telly because there is an reliable source for that one award. But the 2006 Silver Telly award was given to NINE HUNDRED AND THIRTY EIGHT recipients. Almost a thousand people are given that exact same award in 2006. It is not competitive. So there is prrof of ONE award out of FORTY EIGHT claims and even the one is not notable. One award is not "extensive". Worldfamousdirector 07:38, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
  • more info on awards -- I am corrected when I said that imdb doesn't list awards for most of these films. The truth is that Imdb doesnt list ANY of the 48 awards that are claimed. Justin Zimmerman Awards Page at Imdb with no awards, One of Five awards page at Imdb has no awards, Awards page for The Calling at imdb with no awards, the awards page for Lovesick at imdb with no awards, the awards page for fireland at imdb with no awards, the awards page for Edit at imdb with no awards, the imdb page for Gothic with no awards, the imdb page for Flight with no awards listed, the imdb page for Migrane with no awards listed, the awards page for CW on imdb with no awards listed. What is the source to claim these 48 awards? Worldfamousdirector 19:46, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
  • Examination of IMDB (to further Keep decision) IMDB does not have a category for, e.g., the Telly Award, but it is a real award, given to BET, NFL, Time-Warner and NASA.Timothynolan 00:51, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
    • The reason IMDB doesn't have a catagory for the telly is because it is not competative at all You do not compete to win. Tellyawards.com tells that the "entries do not compete against each other". Thousands of Telly awards are given out every single year. Winning one is so NON-notable that IMDB refuses to even list them. The Telly awards are almost like the Whos Who listings. that is used only for self promotion purposes. They compare themselves to Oscar and Emmy but they are not anything like that. Worldfamousdirector 07:38, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
    • Telly Awards Only 10% of all Telly entires get awards, and every major film festival requires entry fees, including Telluride and Sundance, according to my research. HedwigROX —Preceding unsigned comment added by Hedwigrox (talk • contribs) 15:12, 22 October 2007 (UTC) — Hedwigrox (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
• Keep, IMDB holds the filmmaker in high regard, and is noted for its thoroughness. There appears to be a neglecting of an IP doc award, OAC grants, Telly Awards, Iowa, NextFrame, etc appearances in MULTIPLE competitive fests, a broad teaching career. A little research - AKA simply following the links - also shows that the WSC Showcase is judged by an external panel, that the filmmaker was only on the board of the CB Fest one year and that that TOO is judged by an external panel. TimNolan —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.21.191.43 (talk) 23:29, 21 October 2007 (UTC)— 24.21.191.43 (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
  • Wikipedia uses a"one person, one vote" principle - Please don't try and stack the deck Tim Nolan Worldfamousdirector 08:16, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
  • Wikipedia uses a"one person, one vote" principle - I did not write the above, all of my posts are signed with the "Four-tilde" standard, and the above was already present and anonymous when I started posting to this thread. I do not have the technical savvy to prove the the above IP address couln't be mine, but I am posting from Pennsylvania, if that helps, and am editing this anonymously to show current IP. I would think that if I was in fact sock-puppeting, it would be instead be a different name than my own. It seems that somebody tried to use my name, for whatever the opposite term to sock-puppet would be? Regards. 151.201.109.218 15:21, 22 October 2007 (UTC)— 151.201.109.218 (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
  • Wikipedia uses a"one person, one vote" principle - APOLOGIES - I was directed to this site by a colleague and posted using the old cut and paste techinque. Please check my IP address - I am not Mr. Nolan. I deleted the 'author" part of my post once I realized my mistake, but it seems to be being used by someone as fodder. Please keep this on record. proofofliving
    • You were directed to this site by a colleague? This is not a vote and calling friends to log in to all vote one way is not conducive to the discussion. Worldfamousdirector 17:09, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
    • REPLY - You were directed to this site by a colleague? Actually, my colleague is a film director as well who is obsessed with Wikipedia, and found your postings humorous. I am not as tolerant, and thought I'd reply with my opinion, which is just as valid as yours, my "famous" friend. When I look at the varied accomplishments of this individual, which I have now done ad naseum to make my own informed decision, it is obvious that this is a notable filmmaker in his own right, and that Mr. Nolan's article is well presented and up to the Wikipedia's standards. But I'm new here, so...wait, it looks like you're new here too. Your arguments are lacking. Quit resorting to cheap pyschoanalyzation. Everyone here isn't connected, nor are we ganging up on you. Quit bickering! Proofofliving —Preceding unsigned comment added by Proofofliving (talk • contribs) 18:07, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

• Wikipedia uses a"one person, one vote" principle - One person, one vote - but a million posts with half the facts? Only one person seems to be missing the facts on over half the posts they've entered so far, and it doesn't seem to be Mr. Nolan defending his entry... HedwigRox— Hedwigrox (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
  • In response to your assertions IMDB doesnt regard for filmakers one way or an other. IMDB is a database not an awards show. They are also not known for their thoroughness which is why it is not considered credible since imdb is mass-edited with little oversight. Credible sources for the awards claims need to come from credible sources like the film festival pages themselves. The WSC Showcase is a showcase created by Justin Zimmerman that showcases films made by Justin Zimmermans students and is therefore not a competative festival and the awards from that showcase are irrelevent in determining notability. How do you know there was an external panel at CB Fest one year? How are these details known to you? WP:NPOV Worldfamousdirector 08:16, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
  • In response to your assertions You didn't read his post, nor did you check his sources. The Reeel Fest is an international film festival. Zimmerman was on the board ONE YEAR. His films have been featured there in many instances. Laszlo Kovacs showed several of his films at the fest, would we not include his showings because he was also the honorary director one year? I think not. AND, like all competitive film festivals - and the WSC Showcase, which links show was an adjudicated and judged show by an OUTSIDE PANEL - they are by nature competitive...like the Telly Awards (see other entry). HedigRox— Hedwigrox (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
• Some of the films listed aren't even Zimmerman's films The more I search, the more dubious this listing becomes. A number of the films listed as his are actually films made by his students in classes not by him as a film maker. He teaches film classes then puts his name as executive-producer because he is the teacher. Then those films are listed here as if he made them. One is the film Migraine. It was made by David M. Brandon who was a student of Zimmerman link but it is listed under Zimmermans awards. Another is Flight which is a film by Elsa Kavajecz who was a student. It is also listed as an award for Zimmerman. And CW was a film by Katrina Kerr who was also his student. The students make a film, Zimmerman puts his name on as teacher executive producer, and then lists it here as his own award. This is misleading. Worldfamousdirector 12:57, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
• Some of the films listed aren't even Zimmerman's films REPLY- Now you're just getting desperate. IMDB and Zimmerman's site both show the different roles Zimmerman took on each of the projects he has on his site. It's obvious, with two seconds of work, that Zimmerman was CINEMATOGRAPHER on certain projects, post-production supervisors on others, Executive Producer, etc. Why do I have the feeling that if Mr. Nolan switched the awards category to show his different positions on set, you'd still be flaming? Many filmmakers have different roles on sets - should Joe Eszterhas not be an award-winning screenwriter if a film he writes gets selected for an award of accepted into a competetive fest? What if it's a low budget or student shoot? Your standards of notability are odd, especially concerning a young filmmaker with national public television distribution, Telly awards and a Stephen King feature length script approved by the author.HedwigROX— Hedwigrox (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
• Delete. It sounds like he's on the right track, and could well meet the notability criteria in a few years. But Wikipedia is not a crystal ball, and right now, I couldn't find the kinds of sources that are called for - articles about Zimmerman. This is the only article about him I could find, and it's from a college newspaper, which I don't think is strong enough to stand as the best source in the article. No prejudice against creating a new article if he becomes more well-known later. In addition- Hedwigrox, please sign your comments with four tildes (~~~~. What you're doing now is not a valid signature, and doesn't link to your useraccount. And both you and Worldfamousdirector can stop arguing back and forth unless you actually have new sources or information to offer; your bickering doesn't help either of you make a stronger case, and makes the discussion difficult to follow. You've said what you have to say, so wait and see what other editors think. -FisherQueen (talk · contribs) 15:51, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
  • I'm not trying to bicker, only clear up misconceptions It is easy for a casual reader to look at the amount of information on the Zimmerman page and be impressed by all his 'awards'. When many people say they are impressed by the 48 awards it is clear they don't realize that very few of the 48 are real awards and even fewer are reliably sourced. At the beginning I thought they were real awards too, but searches showed Zimmerman's connections with some and that most others had no sources at all. The telly is a real award and sounds impressive but when you look at it it shows why IMDB doesn't list it because it is not competative and they give thousands away every year. Most might not know that so I just tried to inform what I learned. I will try not to repeat myself but will add more info as I find it. Worldfamousdirector 17:09, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
    • Another thing I found is that none of the western.edu news articles are actually from a newspaper - It is not a newspaper that has AP feeds or reporters. All those articals are from the Western Watch newsletter which is put out by the Office of Public Relations and includes press releases and Western college campus information. You write and submit your own articles and press releases. The real campus newspaper is Top 'o The World. I am not bickering. I think it is relevant that all the news articals are just press releases. Worldfamousdirector 17:23, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
  • Clearly Sniping - FisherQueen's critique is well stated. I'm obviously new here but the array of sniping techniques employed by another certain somebody didn't make a lick of sense to me. Half truths and ridiculous assertions - that a feature-length commercial script adaptation approved by Stephen King is something anyone can do - that a film premiere on national public television and two Telly Awards are bought - that an IFP fest win, entries in top doc fests and work shown around the world - that being on the board of an international film festival the year that Laszlo Kovacs was honorary director is somehow WRONG - were simply absurd to me. As I scroll down to the bottom of the Errol Morris page I see a list of notable American documentary filmmakers, many with substantially less experience then this individual with much longer careers with much less substantial bios. On Wikipedia itself I can find this individual tied to several other notable historical events with his films. In any event, I'll let this young professor's career speak for himself, and hope we are being fair and equitable when we look at this young man's career in context with the many, many other filmmakers of his ilk. Or is this simply ageism - he's too young? "You write and submit your own articles and press releases." Who are you talking to? Keep sniping. The only person you're insulting is the writer of the well presented article itself, or are you assuming he's the filmmaker too? :) Perhaps we all are... jeez :) Best to all, Hedwigrox 17:33, 22 October 2007 (UTC) HedwigRox
  • Press Releases - The WSC press releases only validate film work supposedly held under scrutiny here - did the Calling appear on public television and win two Tellys? Other sources confirm the PR. Did the filmmaker get permission from Stephen King to create a feature length commercial screenplay and did it get approved by the author? Other sources confirm the PR. The Top 'O The World appears to be a STUDENT paper, and not official in any way shape or form. The Western Watch is the official newsletter of Western. If you download them, there appears to be many other articles, again maintaining Nolan's article is correct and valid. Thanks for the heads up, editor. Hedwigrox 17:51, 22 October 2007 (UTC) HedwigRox
    • Anything you want to say can be in the Western newsletter - The point is that there is no objective reporting in the newsletter. You email your submissions to lmeredith@western.edu and they print it. Wikipedia standards require objective sources. Multiple sources. Reliable sources. Not claims made by individuals about themself. Not blind support from friends who try and vote stack. This is the truth no matter how much you like Justin Zimmerman. Please see WP:N and WP:RS and WP:BIO for more information. Worldfamousdirector 18:07, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
    • REPLY - Anything you want to say - I'm going to take the editor's advice as well and let Mr. Nolan's work speak for itself, but not before I answer this last piece of inane writing. First, you didn't respond to the earlier assertion by the young man (or woman) who stated that the "PR" as you've called it is simply reinforcing other articles / data / websites / etc. IT ISN'T PRIMARY. It backs up other sources COMPLETELY. Second, you are severely lacking in your understanding of colleges and universities. To imagine that a school would simply reprint something that a prof writes - "I won the Nobel Peace Prize - is amazing and absurd. According to the articles, a Mr. Meredith WRITES them. To suggest that a institution of higher education churns out lies like McDonald's undermines the spirit of educational democracy that makes Wikipedia so important. I hope someday you might attend an institution of higher learning so you too could see how this process works. To wit: Please respond to all points in an entry or it undermines your credibility; Splattering your arguments to and fro makes you look desperate; any "PR" used here simply reinforces accomplishments and awards already defined by primary sources you do not dispute; Mr. Nolan has done a great job with his article; This individual is notable; Colleges and universities do not, in any way shape or form, simply reprint what is sent to them, unless you're counting plagiarized student papers; Good luck with your day! Proofofliving

KEEP This is a young filmmaker with an impressive body of work and major accomplishments. A well researched and balanced entry, I might add. HedwigROX — Hedwigrox (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

KEEP Criticisms aside, filmmaker showcases a broad array of films and accomplishments, with (interestingly enough) no to little criticism leveled against his national public television exhibition, his feature length work, his grant awards, his competitive film festival entries, his video distribution,etc. proofofliving — Proofofliving (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

• Delete - despite the long list of references provided, I don't see any from reliable sources. -- Whpq 19:58, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.