Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Joshua Hellyer
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This page is an archive of the proposed deletion of the article below. Further comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or on a Votes for Undeletion nomination). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result of the debate was DELETE. Paul August ☎ 05:03, 25 September 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Joshua Hellyer
nn student. Punkmorten 10:15, 16 September 2005 (UTC)
- I speedied this the first time it popped up, but it was subsequently recreated. (Clearly I suspected that might happen, as I watchlisted the redlink.) Delete. Being the grandson of a notable person does not make one notable, being a student does not make one notable, hosting a local cable TV show for a year does not make one notable, and on and so forth... Bearcat 15:25, 16 September 2005 (UTC)
- But surely these few things that are by themselves not notable would add up to.. not notable. Delete. Friday (talk) 16:13, 16 September 2005 (UTC)
- Delete nn. — Phil Welch 22:22, 16 September 2005 (UTC)
- Falls beneath the bar of Wikipedia not being an indiscriminate collection of information. And I've gone to silly lengths googling "Sabrevision", "Jesus TM", etc. to be completely confident. Delete; but perhaps the author would be so generous as to add any additional relevant information and maybe a photo or two from different stages of his life to the article on Joshua's clearly notable grandfather. Samaritan 12:11, 17 September 2005 (UTC)
- The ability to Google Jesus TM certainly does not indicate the relevance of a film, as my attempt to google it brought about 2 million hits back. It is obviously difficult to discern the importance or lack thereof of the lesser-known entries, but I think this article should be kept. In the outline for wiki articles, the criteria lists that artists who have sold 5000 cds or more are included, as are people who have written articles read by 5000 or more. Jesus TM, though difficult to google, is certainly a relatively well-known film, and has been seen by more than five thousand people. Likewise Sabrevision. Keep; . Muract 4:01, 19 September 2005 (UTC)
- You clearly have a vested interest in the article. "Jesus TM" brings up about 2,500 hits, not 2 million, and I was unable to find a single hit about a film with Joshua Hellyer in it -- everything I found was either an irrelevant book title in which Jesus was the final word before the trademark symbol, or a joking reference to corporate trademarking of religion. Likewise "SabreVision", which mainly brings up references to an airline reservation system; I could not find one single solitary hit for a television show hosted by Joshua Hellyer. Proof by "because I said so" is not valid; you need to provide sources to back up your claims. Also, I note that this was your first-ever edit to Wikipedia under this user name; you need to be aware that such votes are normally disregarded. Bearcat 22:17, 19 September 2005 (UTC)
- I wasn't aware that making an informed comment on a topic on which I am knowledgeable is against Wikipedia policy. You may therefore disregard my vote if you would like. The two million number is searching for Jesus TM without quotes. The reason for this is because the actual title of the film has the trademark in superscript beside the Jesus, and therefore the film could appear under many variations of the name (the film is a satiric view of the media). I think we could agree that Jesus is a word that appears somewhat often on the world wide web. The ability to not find the correct Jesus TM in two million hits seems a poor excuse for deletion. I came across this site while googling Joshua Hellyer, whom I know. I have also seen Jesus TM. The indie film world, especially the short film world, is a world where "because I said so" is often as good as you can get. Short of providing pictures of the many screenings of the film, there's little way to back my claims, but this is the case with most short films that haven't won academy awards. I don't believe that because of this unfortunate reality successful short films, or the actors who appear in them, should be destined for obscurity. Muract 19:17, 19 September 2005 (UTC)
- Yeah, well, unfortunately, the bottom line on Wikipedia is verifiability of information, meaning that the inability to find an independent reference about the film is a reason for deletion. So far, this article has no verifiable details whatsoever. Googling Joshua Hellyer's name brings up a grand total of 13 hits: five that are either Wikipedia pages or mirrors of Wikipedia pages, two for an American university student, and five for a completely unrelated Joshua Hellyer who lived in Ohio over 200 years ago. I can find exactly one web page referring to this Joshua Hellyer appearing in a film, and that film isn't even Jesus TM. In a nutshell: the onus is on you to provide proof of his notability, not on anyone to provide proof of the obverse. Bearcat 23:58, 19 September 2005 (UTC)
- Here's what I came up with in a few minutes of searching: http://www.yorku.ca/web/about_yorku/yorku_magazine/YorkU_Dec03_FINAL.pdf , which is a magazine that has a page layout about the movie. http://www.yorku.ca/yfile/archive/index.asp?IssueDate=5/9/2003§ion=York%20in%20the%20Media, which is a press page for York University. This press page also cites another newspaper article, which I haven't been able to find online. This is a page from a speech that the director, Jordan Hellyer, did, which mentions Jesus TM: http://www.rocknreelfestival.ca/indiefilmseminar.htm. I know that articles about the film appeared in a few other newspapers, which I haven't been able to locate online. Because something is difficult to locate in the digital arena doesn't mean it should be earmarked for deletion. The onus shouldn't be on me to provide proof of it's notability, because it's implicit in the article existing in the first place. Wikipedia isn't a talent contest, it's an encylopedia for things that people might be interested in knowing. Joshua might get deleted because his accomplishments are not famous, but I could randomly search for any combination of names on Wikipedia and find people that I've never heard of. I don't try and have those people deleted because I cannot verify their accomplishments. The hit that you mentioned for a new film that Joshua is in would re-enforce my argument. Regardless of the descision made about this article, I wanted the perspective of someone who is knowledgable about the topic to be heard. Muract 00:32, 20 September 2005 (UTC)
- Yeah, well, unfortunately, the bottom line on Wikipedia is verifiability of information, meaning that the inability to find an independent reference about the film is a reason for deletion. So far, this article has no verifiable details whatsoever. Googling Joshua Hellyer's name brings up a grand total of 13 hits: five that are either Wikipedia pages or mirrors of Wikipedia pages, two for an American university student, and five for a completely unrelated Joshua Hellyer who lived in Ohio over 200 years ago. I can find exactly one web page referring to this Joshua Hellyer appearing in a film, and that film isn't even Jesus TM. In a nutshell: the onus is on you to provide proof of his notability, not on anyone to provide proof of the obverse. Bearcat 23:58, 19 September 2005 (UTC)
- I wasn't aware that making an informed comment on a topic on which I am knowledgeable is against Wikipedia policy. You may therefore disregard my vote if you would like. The two million number is searching for Jesus TM without quotes. The reason for this is because the actual title of the film has the trademark in superscript beside the Jesus, and therefore the film could appear under many variations of the name (the film is a satiric view of the media). I think we could agree that Jesus is a word that appears somewhat often on the world wide web. The ability to not find the correct Jesus TM in two million hits seems a poor excuse for deletion. I came across this site while googling Joshua Hellyer, whom I know. I have also seen Jesus TM. The indie film world, especially the short film world, is a world where "because I said so" is often as good as you can get. Short of providing pictures of the many screenings of the film, there's little way to back my claims, but this is the case with most short films that haven't won academy awards. I don't believe that because of this unfortunate reality successful short films, or the actors who appear in them, should be destined for obscurity. Muract 19:17, 19 September 2005 (UTC)
- You clearly have a vested interest in the article. "Jesus TM" brings up about 2,500 hits, not 2 million, and I was unable to find a single hit about a film with Joshua Hellyer in it -- everything I found was either an irrelevant book title in which Jesus was the final word before the trademark symbol, or a joking reference to corporate trademarking of religion. Likewise "SabreVision", which mainly brings up references to an airline reservation system; I could not find one single solitary hit for a television show hosted by Joshua Hellyer. Proof by "because I said so" is not valid; you need to provide sources to back up your claims. Also, I note that this was your first-ever edit to Wikipedia under this user name; you need to be aware that such votes are normally disregarded. Bearcat 22:17, 19 September 2005 (UTC)
- Delete Vanity page. -- Corvus 20:16, 22 September 2005 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in an undeletion request). No further edits should be made to this page.
