Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Jon Abbate
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- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was keep, although a lot of the 'keep' comments were discarded, there's still sufficient support to keep this. Daniel Bryant 09:14, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Jon Abbate
- Keep. Jon Abbate will go down in history as one of the greatest and most inspirational players to have ever played football at Wake Forest University. This page will continue to be created because of the impact he has had on his university and on the many Demon Deacon and college football fans the world over. On the contrary to what many of you are saying, this article was created so as to celebrate and conclude his awesome collegiate career, NOT to say that "he deserves a wikipedia page now that he is in the NFL" (whether he makes it or not). There is also sufficient reason to include him simply because of the "Five Foundation" that his family started in the wake of his younger brother's death. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 152.17.57.36 (talk) 06:25, 2 May 2007 (UTC).
This article is another test case for the proposition, "All professional athletes are notable." The subject was a team leader in college football, and has now signed a deal with a professional team as an undrafted free agent. He has not yet played in a game, nor has he "made the roster" (in fairness to him, it's May, so no one has made this year's rosters yet.) This was originally marked as a CSD A7. I don't have much of an opinion on this, except that this case is perhaps the ultimate borderline on what constitutes a professional athelete. Weak delete, pending other opinions. Xoloz 14:58, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
- Keep. While he's currently very much on the edge of being a professional athlete, I think his college career is sufficiently notable to warrant keeping the article -- D-IA college football receives as much coverage as a pro sport in the U.S., after all. Pinball22 15:57, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
- Delete He becomes notable when he's played at the highest level in his sport, and he hasn't done that yet. If and when he does play, then he becomes notable. It's not a question of how much coverage college football gets in the U.S. in general but what Wikipedia's guidelines are. Nick mallory 16:02, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
- Keep. I'm confused here. I'm new to the Wikipedia editing scene, but aren't there plenty of notable college athletes who have entries in Wikipedia? Once they leave school, are their entries automatically deleted? Jon Abbate just signed a contract to play professional football, isn't it premature to wipe him off the record? Furthermore, he was an incredibly important part of the Wake Forest football team that won an ACC Championship and made it to the Orange Bowl this year, something that most sports followers would have never thought possible. The current entry for Jon Abbate needs a lot of polishing and more citations. But he is a "competitor who has played or competed at the highest level in amateur sports." He's been signed to a professional deal. And there's a groundswell of support from sports fans to give him his own Wikipedia page, which seems to me the whole point of having something like Wikipedia in the first place. bigdoublezero 13:06, 1 May 2007
- Comment. We do already have lots of articles about current college athletes -- I think the reason this one is under scrutiny is that it wasn't created during his college career, but rather when he signed the free-agent deal, as part of the article creations for newly-drafted players. Pinball22 18:14, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
- Keep. We're a better encyclopedia with this article than without it, and absent BLP or privacy issues, that's my ultimate test. Newyorkbrad 17:22, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
- Comment Youth players in England who haven't played for a team in the Premiership or Football League get deleted. Cricketers who haven't played first class cricket get deleted. College soccer in the USA isn't the highest level of amateur sport. If he's signed to a professional deal, then he'll soon make his debut for a proper professional club and there won't be a problem. Nick mallory 17:42, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
- It's American football, not soccer, and trust me, for better or worse high-level American college football is big business and major notability. Newyorkbrad 18:10, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
- Weak keep - Probably does technically violate WP:BIO (Xoloz you may want to re-read it - it doesn't say "All professional athletes are notable" but "Competitors who have played in a fully professional league", and as I understand it he has yet to play. However, since he's been signed as a pro now, and the moment he does set foot on a pitch (or whatever American Football has) the article will be legitimately recreated, I think this is a good time to WP:IAR to save everyone involved annoyance and wasted time — iridescenti (talk to me!)
- I gave up on following the exact wording of guidelines a long time ago, but thanks for the heads up! :) Who knows what it will say next month? -- we can only hope the spirit remains consistent as the wording is tweaked. :) We call it a football field over here, btw. Xoloz 19:10, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
- Delete, undrafted free agents are usually longshots to play in the pros. Feel free to recreate if he makes the Texans' opening-day roster. NawlinWiki 18:08, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
- Are you saying Abbate's college career and significance to football fans isn't enough to keep his Wikipedia entry? It's not his fault he was signed as an undrafted free agent. He's even listed, along with many other players, as an Undrafted Rookie on the Houston Texans roster on Wikipedia. Should we go through and delete all those URs from the Texans page? I'm failing to understand why putting more information on the Internet for interested people is a bad thing. Isn't that the point of Wikipedia? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.235.241.180 (talk) 19:55, 1 May 2007 (UTC).
- Keep, Wake Forest's unprecedented run to the Orange Bowl will be remembered for years, just as Boise State's Fiesta Bowl victory will. College Football is just as big a market, if not bigger, than pro football. Jon Abbate was the unquestioned team leader of this Wake Forest team, and if you asked any college football fan who he is, I'm sure they could answer. The fact is, in at least Wake Forest fans minds, this season will be remembered for decades as possibly the turning point for Wake Forest Football, which, for a long time, has been one of the worst in college football. If you don't think the leader of this team is notable, then I don't know what to say. I don't understand how he has to be great in the NFL in order for there to be an article on him. Would we not be allowed to write an article about Randolph Childress? The guy tore his ACL and therefore had a sub-par professional career, but broke the all time scoring record in the ACC tournament, scoring 40, 36, 32. That is "notable" if you want an understatement. Delete BS articles if you want, but this is a serious article as a tribute to one of the best football players to ever go to Wake Forest, and I think that meets the criterion "notable" in and of itself. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.125.192.169 (talk) 19:04, 1 May 2007 (UTC).
- Keep, This just skirts the edges of WP:BIO, but given his fairly notable amateur career to date, he has a significant chance to make it as a pro. May not be perfectly notable, but close enough. Coren 23:37, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
- Keep, None of the players that were drafted in the NFL draft last weekend have played in an NFL game. Does this mean that they all do not deserve Wikipedia pages? Abbate is in the same boat as every other rookie in the NFL, he is under contract but has yet to officially make the team or play in an NFL game. Granted, he may have less of a chance of ever playing in an NFL game than the top draft picks, but who's to say that JaMarcus Russell doesn't have a career ending injury before he ever plays in a game. I doubt that anyone would call for his article's deletion as his college career is enough to merit an article, and that is the same rationale that should be used for Jon Abbate. Hindudot1788 00:51, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
- I don't have a very firm opinion here, but it is quite clear that there is a very big practical difference between a top draft pick and an undrafted player. If JaMarcus Russell never plays a game, his disastrous career will be legendary for its failure. Whether there is a difference between low draft picks and an undrafted players (as well as whether either category belongs in Wikipedia) is the open question here. It isn't clear to me that a seventh-round draft pick is notable -- perhaps those sorts too should be eliminated from Wikipedia, at least until they've played in a game. Xoloz 01:29, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
- However, there are plenty of examples on Wikipedia of players, such as Jared Zabransky, the former Boise State quarterback that was not drafted in the NFL Draft, and has signed as a free agent with the Houston Texans - the same exact situation as Jon Abbate is currently in (down to the same team). I don't see any differences between the two cases - Zabransky is clearly staying on Wikipedia, and Abbate, who was the Wake Forest team leader as much as Zabransky was the Boise State team leader, is being debated about here. Darius Walker, undrafted out of Notre Dame, has a page on Wikipedia. I don't see any differences here, and that's reason enough for this article to stay. It's not hurting anyone - let it be. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Mersk862 (talk • contribs) 03:15, 4 May 2007 (UTC).
- I don't have a very firm opinion here, but it is quite clear that there is a very big practical difference between a top draft pick and an undrafted player. If JaMarcus Russell never plays a game, his disastrous career will be legendary for its failure. Whether there is a difference between low draft picks and an undrafted players (as well as whether either category belongs in Wikipedia) is the open question here. It isn't clear to me that a seventh-round draft pick is notable -- perhaps those sorts too should be eliminated from Wikipedia, at least until they've played in a game. Xoloz 01:29, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
