Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Johnny Lee Clary (2nd nomination)

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. - Bobet 22:08, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Johnny Lee Clary

(also see discussion page)http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Articles_for_deletion/Johnny_Lee_Clary_%282nd_nomination%29

Let's leave aside for now the fact that this article was deleted by an AfD, despite heavy interference from its subject. Let's leave aside for now that after the article was deleted by due process, one of Clary's supporters tried to recreate the article under titles such as J L Clary, John Clary, and Johnny Clary. What makes it absolutely outrageous that this article exists is that this individual already has an article created by the same supporter who then created this one! The two articles even link to each other, Johnny Lee Clary and Johnny Angel (wrestler)! When I saw the attempt to promote Mr. Clary again, this time with an article focused on his career in pro wrestling, I thought it was pretty cheap, but I let it go. But now he's supposed to get two articles, when he and his supporters couldn't demonstrate enough notability in the first AfD for one article? -- Antaeus Feldspar 16:45, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

  • Delete per own nom. -- Antaeus Feldspar 16:45, 30 August 2006 (UTC) Vote withdrawn due to improvements in article and sourcing and merger of redundant "Johnny Angel" article. -- Antaeus Feldspar 00:22, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
  • Speedy delete G4, recreated material. OK then, just plain Redirect to Johnny Angel (wrestler). NawlinWiki 16:54, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
    • It turns out it did finally have a deletion review, found here, which was closed as "Recreation permitted; AfDing is left to normal editorial choice." However, I note that one of the arguments which was presented for reviewing the deletion was "'Johnny Lee Clary' which certainly only one such person exists, gets thousands of google hits." I have tried several times to Google Mr. Clary and I always get just 623 hits. -- Antaeus Feldspar 17:03, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep - Notability is established by several newsworthy events with which he was involved. Former KKK leader, former WWF pro-wrestler, and current traveling preacher plus various interviews and news articles about him. Sufficient coverage to meet verifiability and incessant attempts to delete are annoying. Wjhonson 17:59, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
    • I think you misspelled "incessant attempts to create articles promoting Clary, a minority of said attempts actually employing legitimate methods." -- Antaeus Feldspar 19:19, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete. I get 646 total, 142 unique, hits in English, which to me says he's not as influential or notable as some would like to believe. Most of the hits seem to be blogs and forums and, interestingly, a lot of Australian sites. I can't really find anything that qualifies as Reliable Sources. To clarify the history, earlier versions were pretty much created by Clary himself, full of OR, POV and unverifiable personal claims. Author of this version appears to be unrelated, someone who heard Clary speak, felt he deserved an article, and launched the DRV. However, it seems the content is still overwhelmingly based on Clary's own claims. Fan-1967 18:09, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
    • Comment - Are you claiming ABC is not a reliable source? Wjhonson 18:13, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
  • To clarify, this ABC is the Australian Broadcasting Corporation (not the US ABC), and they interviewed him and let him tell his story, as did a number of other Australian news sources. (He seems to have done a better job of selling himself down under than he has in the US.) However, what these news reports all amount to is basically "Clary says that..." How much can be verified from a news report citing a source other than Johnny Lee Clary? Fan-1967 18:22, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep. Subject is former head of the White Knights of the Ku Klux Klan. That alone makes him notable enough for Wikipedia. His wrestling career is not notable enough to merit its own article. Johnny Angel (wrestler) ought to be deleted. Rohirok 18:32, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
  • Merge While notability in all areas is reasonably weak, I think that it's enough. We have a conversion story that's compelling enough to get coverage in numerous specialist (i.e. Christian) publications and on a couple of national TV shows, along with a pro-wrestling career (as unimpressive as it may be). While I might have thought each one just missed the mark on its own, when there are a combinations of factors for notability I don't think individual ones need to be as strong. WP:Bio is a non-comprehensive guideline. The article needs major clean up though. Both of the current ones read like press releases. --SiobhanHansa 19:12, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep and merge wrestler article into it, as a section. --Uncle Ed 20:25, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
  • Merge and redirect anything worthwhile from Johnny Angel (wrestler) into Johnny Lee Clary. Cleanup and keep the main article. By cleanup I mean remove the WP:POV and WP:OR as SiobhanHansa has already started to do. Gwernol 21:23, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep The article is poorly sourced, but I get plenty of news articles from three continents, 125 on Newsbank, multiple of which are "Former KKK dude turns minister" portraits. The wrestler article has to go though. ~ trialsanderrors 06:39, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep and Don't Merge If the argument is about Clary being notable, then please consider these things three things: See Wikipedia talk:Articles for deletion/Johnny Lee Clary (2nd nomination)
Can I suggest that those who have voted claiming that he is not notable if you could read the talk page and then re-comment! Potters house 13:49, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
Re-comment I see nothing really to change my opinion that Clary is very good at promoting himself, but the lack of external sources is still a huge problem. Fan-1967 14:25, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
So Oprah, Donahue, and the many many other people listed in the Talk page are not good sources? What is a good source then?
  • Keep, Keep, Keep Vrmarshall 04:12, August 31, 2006 -- This is Vrmarshall (talk · contribs)'s only edit.
Vrmarshall, please note this is a discussion, not a vote. Please let us know why the article should be kept. --SiobhanHansa 12:22, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep and Don't Merge Clary has plenty of references to prove he is notable ReaganRebel 10:09, August 31, 2006 ReaganRebel (talk · contribs)'s third edit.
  • Keep and merge per Gwernol. He seems to be generally just notable enough to me, but if Bob Dylan doesn't get a separate article for his conversion to Christianity (which I'm not advocating for, just observing) this guy certainly shouldn't. One article will suffice. Dina 16:42, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep - As I said in the first AfD, anyone with this man's resume is noteable. The problem is vanity, not notability. If this gets deleted again, please salt the earth with {{deletedpage}} - Richardcavell 01:36, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete. "So good they named you twice" only applies to New York. If he's notable, he gets one article. If not, then none at all. As we're only debating one of the two articles written on him, my vote is delete. The content of the deleted article can be merged with the other per Dina. Somebody will then prune it to a size which matches [not] Johnny's ego :-) Ohconfucius 06:13, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
This one seems like a deletion bot see: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Contributions&target=Ohconfucius Also - why the POV? Johnny's Ego has nothing to do with it. It is not a case of whether you like the man or not but an examination of fact - Is he notable? Yes! Why put delete if you really mean merge? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Potters house (talk • contribs)
Haven't you gotten yourself in enough trouble making baseless and vicious allegations about other editors, Nick? Or do you think it's okay to make personal attacks on other editors, as long as suspiciously new users and anonymous editors show up suddenly in order to claim that they think you are right in your baseless and vicious allegations? -- Antaeus Feldspar 12:57, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
  • Yes Keep - it needs tidy up - but has some real metal - I don't even understand why it is up for deletion in the first place 220.233.86.223 07:34, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
  • KEEPIn Australia as well as in the USA Rev. Johnny Lee Clary is well known and has a very high profile in both countries. As I live in Australia and have seen Rev. clary on our national TV stations on many occasions, the last being on Andrew Denton's ABC TV Show which is viewed Nation Wide in Australia. Rev. Clary is also an ordained Minister in Christian Family Churches of Australia a national organisation.Hawkeyejd 09:34, 1 September 2006 (UTC) Hawkeyejd (talk · contribs)'s only edit.


  • KeepI've known OF Clary for years. It's not inappropriate in any way that he is listed. You would have to delete many others if you start here. 1 September 2006—Preceding unsigned comment added by Ritakaysinger (talk • contribs) Note First edit from brand new account.


  • Comment Okay, I added cats per Dennette and attempted to merge from Johnny Angel (wrestler) per several people. I think we should close this Afd and then Afd Johnny Angel (wrestler), especially as it appears to be a copyvio from [here]. Working on the wrestling credits, it appears to me that he was not an especially notable wrestler, but then again, what I don't know about pro wrestling could fill Wikipedia. I'd like it if someone who knows more about it gave the section a once over. The combined credits of ex-KKK, pro-wrestling preacher seem to fulfull WP:BIO for me. Still need more decent references though. Dina 13:32, 1 September 2006 (UTC)


  • Comment Dina's merge looks good. I turned Johnny Angel (wrestler) into a redirect. That preserves the GFDL-required history of revisions, while abiding by the "one man, one article" principle. Can we close this afd now? --Uncle Ed 13:47, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
Comment I posted a message to the wrestling project asking for someone to read over my section. The plethora of wrestling organizations and "world" titles in pro wrestling is pretty confusing to someone who doesn't follow it. Hopefully if I've made any errors, someone will find them. So let's close this Afd! Dina 14:00, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete (again). Negligible Google presence, lack of reliable sources, strong evidence of a barrow being pushed. Any neutral published biographies we can cite? Guess not. Just zis Guy you know? 14:37, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
    • 125 on Newsbank, as noted above. (Although there are quite a number of duplicates, so it porbably boils down to 30 articles net.) ~ trialsanderrors 21:43, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Bold textKeep Johnny Lee Clary in this wikipedia text. Cleanup and keep main article. User:Tstansell Note First edit from new user

  • Keep, merge and cleanup! as per Gwernol. Stop rigging the voting by asking friends to vote to keep the article (comment to whomever is doing this). This is a discussion based on arguments made in favor or against the AfD. The votes don't really matter if you're not going to say why you want to keep/delete the article. --Nishkid64 21:35, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep His high ranking in the Klan coupled with the media attention he received (and still seems to receive) as a converted outspoken critic of Klan ideology and practices more than warrants an entry on him. As for hits - in some cases I don't think too much weight can be put on them in terms of determining someone's notoriety. I'm sure there's a lot of important composers and artists who get a similarly low number of hits, but those shouldn't go up for deletion. Deputy Marshall 01:24, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep and clean it the hell up instead.  ALKIVAR™ 14:30, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
  • Merge content. No need to have two articles when one will do. --ScienceApologist 14:45, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep He has made the Australian press extensively. I think that is notable enough. MyNameIsNotBob 00:06, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
  • KEEP the artical. I have known Johnny Lee most of my life. He has done the things that he says he has. I know his heart and he is out there trying to help people through the message of the love of Jesus Christ. I may be a nobody to most of you , but God knows my heart. KEEP the artical,its true!!I have videos of Johnny on all kinds of T.V. shows.Get over it, whats all the fuss about? Ask God yourself. I promise you he will answer you if youll stop and listen. from Leonard Kimble, Calif. — Friendofgods (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
  • Comment The material from the second article on the same person, Johnny Angel (wrestler), has been merged into this article and redirected to this one as well. There are no longer two articles, which was what started this AfD in the first place. Will some administrator please close it? (It's attracting sockpuppets, fanboys, and trolls.) --Dennette 03:23, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
  • well done now please put a lock on the redirect to prevent it from becoming a fork again. Ohconfucius 09:53, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep'Bold text'Keep —Preceding unsigned comment added by inretromanager (talk • contribs) inretromanager (talk · contribs)'s first edit
  • Keep' Keep! No matter your religious or political views, this man has contributed to society, and deserves his place in wikipedia —Preceding unsigned comment added by Loripace (talk • contribs) Closing admin note: first edit by this account.
  • Comment this is obviously a Keep - can an admin please remove the deletion tag.Potters house 23:08, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.