Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/John Fullerton

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result of the debate was delete. bainer (talk) 12:18, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] John Fullerton

Closer's notes
For the record, several user's comments/votes were disregarded:
Ciaranmcgonagle (talk • contribs) (edits almost exclusively to pages related to this one)
Fieldmarshalamin (talk • contribs) (edits only to this page)
Nzamcdza (talk • contribs) (given low weight, very new user)
Furthermore, all IP comments/votes were disregarded.

This article was originally requested at Wikipedia:AFC. It was created by User:Johnfullerton, and looks like WP:Vanity. I originally flagged it for speedy-bio but the creator objected so I am listing here. The article seems to make no claim to notability for its subject, outside his community. The thesis statement is John Fullerton (born January 18, 1957) was a past-pupil of St. Columb's College in Derry. Google gives a lot of hits for someone else of the same name. I am sure that Mr. Fullerton is a local community leader, but I don't think his autobiography is encyclopedic. - orioneight (talk) 00:21, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

  • Userfy to User:Johnfullerton. Unfortunately, he fails to meet WP:BIO. Capitalistroadster 00:31, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
  • Delete or Userfy per Capitalistroadster and my above explanation. - orioneight (talk) 00:34, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
  • Delete - he may have minor notability as a footballer. However, problems remain: any claims of his general notability being on a par with people like Martin O'Neill, John Hume and Seamus Heaney need documented proof (as I said, no sign in the Derry Journal, nor in the NewsBank newspaper article). And are the minutiae of the business dealings of a school PE teacher and the planning politics of his department really worth including in an encyclopedia? Furthermore, the interference with the afd and the influx of newly-signed editors endorsing his importance suggests there's astroturfing going on with this article. Tearlach 14:45, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
  • Speedy Delete - non notable biography.--File Éireann 00:52, 11 December 2005 (UTC) Keep - now shown to be reasonable.--File Éireann 10:26, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
  • Keep I'll go out on a limb here based upon the comments below I think this might be worth keeping. KnowledgeOfSelf | talk 03:29, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
  • Delete Changed to delete after reveiwing the article and discussions. KnowledgeOfSelf | talk 17:45, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
The subject is of substantial importance and significance to the local population of Northern Ireland, specifically Derry City. He is just as renowned in the city and famous institution of St. Columb's College as fellow illustrious alumni such as Martin O'Neill, John Hume and Seamus Heaney. I do not see any challenge to the existence of these men's articles. John Fullerton is also a name common to many ears outside his local community as I will discuss below.
I feel that the article does make numerous claims to notability for it's subject. John Fullerton was not only a past pupil. The initial statement is a mere introduction. There are other reasons for this article and I feel I have mentioned them within the content, thus warranting the article itself.
For example, he is recognised as an overhead and free kick specialist and along with Tony Furey, a fellow member of the Physical Education department in St. Columb's College and a powerful diplomat, he famously negotiated with the British government and brokered numerous deals for the state-funding of his department, resulting in the much-needed investment totalling £2 million to be allocated to the department over a period of 7 years between 1987 and 1994. One of the monthly sums personally designated to John Fullerton for his development proposal can be seen here. This was the standard monthly sum for John Fullerton for 2 years, while Tony Furey received a similar sum and the College was given half a million pounds sterling due to the successful negotiations. As far as I know, further details of the payment are not allowed for reasons of commercial confidentiality as the institution is permanently operational and is currently awaiting acceptance of further development. John Fullerton's ground-breaking negotiations were a huge achievement and are well-known throughout Britain, Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland as a major breakthrough for Catholic/nationalist equality during the "troubles" era. These negotiations had been the first of their kind since he worked for a department in a Roman Catholic school in Unionist-dominated Northern Ireland. They set an extremely important precedent for Northern Irish politics and social policies. Catholic schools had previously been neglected by the largely Protestant-biased UUP. He is held as a local hero by many among the nationalist community as he demonstrated that the goal of full equality and peace could be achieved by diplomacy and co-operation, rather than violent tactics, like that employed by the IRA. This approach he adopted was similar to that taken by John Hume. —the preceding unsigned comment is by 159.134.207.171 (talk • contribs)

The previous comment is mine by the way. Also, I am not John Fullerton himself. I merely adopted the screenname to create the article. —the preceding unsigned comment is by Johnfullerton (talk • contribs)

I would have to agree that John Fullerton is a notable character. I’m from Belfast, Northern Ireland but living in Derry, but I had heard about Fullerton before moving here. His often-hilarious exploits at Derry City FC get a brief mention in Norman Giller’s “Football and All That: An Irreverent History”, where he famously scored from near the half-way line in a league football game. This is quite an achievement in football and Giller describes him as “an influential and witty personality to local football at a time when Northern Ireland needed something to cheer about”. The distance he scored the free-kick from was the second furthest distance ever scored from in the UK and Ireland. He is also mentioned in “From Civil Rights to Armalites: Derry and the Birth of the Irish Troubles” by Niall O'Dochartaigh for his breakthrough in cross-community negotiations in Northern Ireland. “an influential and witty personality for local football at a time when Northern Ireland needed something to cheer about”. The article includes all the relevant information. —the preceding unsigned comment is by 84.64.215.208 (talk • contribs)

  • Comment You should add this information to the article because it would show he met WP:BIO. Capitalistroadster 02:18, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
  • Delete as non-notable, vanity. Ifnord 03:57, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
  • Keep as long as the article is rewritten well enough to show notability. Snurks T C 03:58, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
  • Keep I am from Newry in Northern Ireland and John Fulerton is one of Northern Ireland's greatest characters of the past 50 years. NzaMcDza T C 05:02, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
Note User's second edit. - orioneight (talk) 17:28, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
  • Keep Seems notable to me. (Bjorn Tipling 07:18, 11 December 2005 (UTC))
  • Weak delete Main notability is by association. Has done laudable work but unencyclopedaic. Dlyons493 Talk 10:30, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
  • Comment The Derry Journal online archives do not go back to the when Fullerton carried out his most influential work. Although the article is about a man who planned his physical education department, which does not sound notable on the face of it, the individual circumstances in Fullerton's case are what give him special prominence. He set a famous precedent in Northern Irish politics, as has been noted, by negotiating the planning of the department. Also, although I was aware of his speciality in the area of overhead and free kicking I was unaware that he held the record in football mentioned in Giller's book. I am aware of O'Dochartaigh's book and the mention of Fullerton. - unsigned comment by Johnfullerton (talk · contribs)
  • Keep I think this should be kept. I believe that fullerton was also one of the minds behind the original anti-bullying wristbands. vote was by User:Ciaranmcgonagle (user forgot to sign signature added by SusanLarson)
Note User's sixth edit. Also not user's vandalism here and fishing for votes here. - orioneight (talk) 17:28, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

I think another reason why this article ought to be kept is that, in a school noted for the brilliance of its past pupils, john fullerton is a man who has achieved great status in his field. He is important to people in Derry and surrounding areas. It would be a disgrace if he is once again shunned from the limelight that he so richly deserves. I believe some of the best chapters on Fullerton have yet to be written!

  • Keep how can anyone say John Fulerton is "not notable" ??? that is insane, he is one of the most widely know and respected figures in Northern Ireland of the past 50 years. I had forgotton about the fact that he was also one of the minds behind the original anti-bullying wristbands worn by thousands of people including many celebrities all over the U.K. What else must one do to be deemed "notable" ??!!?? Nzamcdza 16:16, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

Biographies on the following people may be included in Wikipedia. This list is not all-inclusive. There are numerous biographies on Wikipedia on people who do not fall under any of these categories, but there is no intention to delete them all.

Political figures holding international, national or statewide/provincewide office or members of a national, state or provincial legislature. Major local political figures who receive significant press coverage Widely recognized entertainment personalities and opinion makers Sportspeople who have played in a fully professional league, or a competition of equivalent standing in an individual professional sport, or at the highest level in mainly amateur sports, including college sports in the United States. Articles about first team squad members who have not made a first team appearance may also be appropriate, but only if the individual is at a club of sufficient stature that most members of its squad already have articles. Notable actors and television personalities who have appeared in well-known films or television productions.

Notability can be determined by: Multiple features in popular culture publications such as Vogue, GQ, Elle, FHM or national newspapers A large fan base, fan listing or "cult" following An independent biography Name recognition Commercial endorsements Published authors, editors, and photographers who have written books with an audience of 5,000 or more or in periodicals with a circulation of 5,000 or more Recording musicians who have sold more than 5,000 albums, CDs, or similar recordings (see WikiProject Music's Notability and Music Guidelines) Painters, sculptors, architects, engineers, and other professionals whose work is recognized as exceptional and likely to become a part of the enduring historical record of that field Persons achieving renown or notoriety for their involvement in newsworthy events

I have included in bold all the various criteria which John Fulerton meets and considering you only have to meet one of these criteria to be included there can be no doubt that he is notable and his page should be kept. Nzamcdza 16:56, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

Comment This is not a vote. You have already said "keep" three times now, please label comments as such. As far as your claims, I have yet to see a verifiable piece of evidence that would prove that any of these are true. All that has been provided here are paragraphs of personal testimony and claims, but I have yet to see a link posted, a news article, anything that we can verify. I've exhausted Google and come up short. We've already tried the Derry Journal. Please stop posting ridiculously long paragraphs of your personal, unverifiable testimony and give us something we can look at. —— orioneight (talk) 17:39, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
  • Delete per Tearlach. Regarding the criteria that he apparently meets according to Nzamcdza: I believe that to be quite subjective, I'd like to see some (unbiased) sources agreeing with that.. --JoanneB 17:09, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
  • Comment Fullerton played for Derry City FC in the professional Irish football league whilst on trial and his famous wonder-goal is mentioned in Giller's book, as has been pointed out. The Derry Journal office archives on the Buncrana Road in Derry will have numerous articles on Fullerton dating from the time of his most prominent work. His importance to NI society and politics was also pointed out in O'Dochartaigh's book. This clearly demonstrates that he is a major local political figure. Does this not satisfy the criteria? Regarding the anti-bullying wristbands, I'm not sure how influential he was in their creation. Have you any evidence of this? If anything, I think he merely promoted them. —the preceding unsigned comment is by 159.134.206.82 (talk • contribs)

he has also been briefly mentioned in an article by Queens University Professor Kieran McEvoy ("Restorative Justice and the Critique of Informalism in Northern Ireland " (with Harry Mika) (2002) 43 British Journal of Criminology 534 ) as one of the people who have made strides in promoting cross community relations. —the preceding unsigned comment is by Ciaranmcgonagle (talk • contribs)

Fullerton is a legend and deserves to be on this site. I remember watching him as a young sweet heart of the local game, not only did he have great ability with his feet he was also a major heart throb. I say keep this hunk of a man on! GRRR! —the preceding unsigned comment is by 81.156.245.112 (talk • contribs)

  • Comment This is not a vote so I don't see the point in people adding their personal views or support in order to keep this article up. It is both futile and detrimental to any chance of Fullerton being taken seriously by anyone who is unaware of his work. As Tearlach points out, "the interference with the afd and the influx of newly-signed editors endorsing his importance suggests there's astroturfing going on with this article (Tearlach 14:45, 11 December 2005 (UTC))". I'm not sure who these people are but the interference is certainly damaging the subject's credibility so I'd be pleased to see excitable people refrain from treating this debate as a voting arena. Now, regardless of these interferences, the facts are as follows:
  • Fullerton is a notable sportsman. He played for Derry City FC in the professional Irish football league whilst on trial and scored a record goal for the UK and Ireland. (Norman Giller, Football and All That: An Irreverent History)
  • Fullerton is a notable personality in Northern Irish politics and society. He made famous and ground-breaking negotiations with the British government, changing the face of the political and social scene in Northern Ireland gaining increased equality for Roman Catholics in the area of education. (Niall O'Dochartaigh, From Civil Rights to Armalites: Derry and the Birth of the Irish Troubles (I am well aware of this book, as it is in the Central Library in Derry and I have borrowed it previously. If needs be I could check for its availability, borrow it and scan the relevant pages for people to see.), Kieran McEvoy ("Restorative Justice and the Critique of Informalism in Northern Ireland " (with Harry Mika) (2002) 43 British Journal of Criminology 534 )) Evidence of the actual investment resulting from the negotiations can be seen at, http://www.niassembly.gov.uk/qanda/writtenans/000131.htm#eti, as has been pointed out above.
  • Claims have been made that he was influential in the setting up of the global anti-bullying wrist-band campaign, although I am not convinced by this. I feel evidence of this is necessary as Fullerton merely promoted them within Northern Ireland, if anything.--Johnfullerton 20:14, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
  • Delete. Not notable. Sockpuppet invasion. android79 20:18, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

I think this subject is totally relevant to this page. John Fullerton was footballs original heart throb. Had he been about nowadays he would be as big as Beckham,he certainly takes a better set piece. A sportsman, a humanitarian and a prince and I say keep him. —the preceding unsigned comment is by Fieldmarshalamin (talk • contribs)


KEEP: I detect a lot of jealousy amongst posters on this discussion of this great man. Don't hate him because he is better than you. Fullerton would not hate you for feeling this way, he is humble in his greatness and I think it's time that you people take a leaf from John's book and honour this beautiful tribute. This is a man who embodied class, touch and vision on and off the football field, it is truly a disgrace that his name be soiled in this way. hame on the lot of you! KEEP this homage to John Fullerton. —the preceding unsigned comment is by Fieldmarshalamin (talk • contribs)


here is a link to a match report involving a recent game of fullertons, making an appearance for an inishowen team - http://www.inishtimes.com/sport3.htm —the preceding unsigned comment is by 82.19.66.27 (talk • contribs)

That's an Under-18 league, and the person discussed is named Declan Fullerton. — orioneight (talk) 21:04, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
  • Keeep --156.34.70.132 21:21, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
  • Delete. Vanity article. With puppetfest bonus. —Bunchofgrapes (talk) 21:29, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
  • Delete noting sockpuppetry. I don't believe this guy is actually notable. But userfy if the user-who-is-not-the-subject wants. Just zis  Guy, you know? [T]/[C] AfD? 22:56, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
  • Delete, notability has not been established. Demiurge 23:34, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
  • Delete Vanity. Arkon 23:50, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
  • Keep this page,it's all fact. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 159.134.206.164 (talk • contribs)
  • Delete vanity. David Woolley 00:17, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

Comment I am not John Fullerton so I cannot see how the accusation of vanity against the article can stand. Anyhow, I apologise for the mess this has become. These trolls are not sockpuppets of mine and have nothing to do with me. I am as much frustrated by their interference as other serious contributors to this site, as they are damaging the subject's (now slight) chance to remain credible. Before their interference there was a consensus for possibly keeping the article. However, since, this has changed and I feel their interuption has put some contributors on a side against the article. Nevertheless, serious sources relating to Fullerton's notability have been mentioned. Are these enough to ensure the page is preserved?--Johnfullerton 00:20, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

Seriously I am trying here. But the problem is that verifiable sources haven't been provided, to justify the claims of notability in the article. Read this page . . . nothing but paragraphs and paragraphs of personal testimony, but no one has provided the link we ask for. I can only barely prove that this man exists, let alone that he is one of the most well-known and important figures in Northern Ireland. If he is so important, than why does a Google search for "John Fullerton" Derry turn up no hits for him? Surely there would be something, either from his work in politics or in football. But alas, there is nothing. Even the link to the school's website shows that he is not even the head of the P.E. department, but rather the school coach. I'm sure his work toward a new school gym is important to that school, and perhaps to that community, but it is not of interest to an encyclopedia reader from a general audience. — orioneight (talk) 01:19, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
  • Delete nn bio, google for (Fullerton + "Derry City") returns no results for this person.  ALKIVAR™ 02:17, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
  • Keep. Google hits aren't everything. wikipediatrix 03:00, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
    • No, they aren't, but WP:V is. android79 03:25, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
  • Pound with asteroids and execute the sockpuppets. --YixilTesiphon Say hello 04:17, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
  • Delete due to the sockpuppets. karmafist 07:02, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
    • Correct me if I'm wrong but this appear to argue, then, that all you need to do to get the cabal to delete an article is VfD it, then flood Wiki with sockpuppets supporting its retention, at which point, no matter how worthy it is, it gets deleted for sock-puppet support. If this is the Wiki policy, please tell me, and I can go and do likewise.
      • Nope, it isn't, since the sock votes wouldn't be counted anyway. 95% of the time, socks only hurt your chances to do whatever it is you want to do on here since people will view the credibility of the claims of your side with suspicion since they had to resort to socks. The other 5% of the time is when a losing side puts socks voting for the opposing side, usually because it's so obvious that the other side will win that the losing side feels they have to do something to break consensus. karmafist 17:34, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
  • Comment Judge the article on its worth - not on the fact that there has been an invasion. These people have nothing to do with the initial article and they frustrate me as much as anyone else who wants to ensure that Wikipedia can be taken as a reliable and serious website. I understand the strict regulations but sources have been provided so I do not understand how anyone can claim otherwise. Before the invasion, I recall a few users had argued that the article should possibly be kept with a clean-up. I have done this and will try to provide more information if possible, but the invasion should not be allowed to discredit the subject.--Johnfullerton 09:39, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
    • Comment OK, so this guy has had brief mentions in one obscure academic paper and in one obscure book by an unknown author, and his name is included in a NI assembly document as the recipient of a government grant (as well as a local newspaper article which turned out to be a completely different Fullerton). Still does not establish notability. If this guy was in any way notable, the Derry local press at least would have heard of him. Demiurge 10:49, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
  • Comment The local press online archives do not go back far enough to when Fullerton carried out his work. The Derry Journal Office archives on the Buncrana Road would have planty of information. So far we've established that he has been mentioned in two books, not one. And who are you to say they are obscure? O'Dochartaigh's book is an important publication for anyone interested in Derry City and the history of the "troubles" in NI, while Giller's proves that he played in a professional football league. Not only did he do so, but he scored a record goal. There are biographies on here for modern-day professional Irish league footballers. Why should it be any different for Fullerton? --Johnfullerton 11:28, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
Don't worry about the sockpuppets. They're an irrelevant nuisance. The point is still verification. Even if the references in those books are verified, the bulk of the material in the John Fullerton#Career section remains unverified by published sources. What reputable publication tells us about his tendon injury or his meteoric rise in the ranks to be, erm, deputy head of a school PE department? Who "argued that only George Best in recent times has been more successful at using the medium of sport to bridge political divides in Northern Ireland"? Who suggested "that the reason why his success has not been more noteworthy is due to" etc?
As to one of the sources offered: the NI Assembly document lists a John Fullerton as recipient of £8,467, but provides no detail: for all we know, it might be a different John Fullerton and refer to a contract to clean the windows. Another current example: the Alumni Illustrissimi site only lists winners up to 2003] so currently we've no proof that he won that award in 2005. Tearlach 13:10, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
  • Delete not notable, sockpuppet-supported. Andrew Lenahan - Starblind 13:27, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
  • Strong and Obvious Delete. Notability, if any, should be mentioned in the first sentence and should be verifiable. What a waste of everyone's precious time! Logophile 14:35, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
  • I have visited the Central Library in Derry and asked the receptionist to direct me to books she knew to refer to Fullerton. She directed me towards:
  • Walker, Past and Present: History, Identity and Politics in Northern Ireland. (At page

72-73 Fullerton and the St. Columb’s College affair is talked about in enough detail to make it notable I feel.)

  • Hargie and Dickson, Researching the Troubles: Social Science Perspectives on the Northern Ireland Conflict.
  • Mahon, The History of Gaelic Football (In the chapter relating to GAA in Ulster, and a specific sub-section on Co. Derry, the divide between the “soccer-playing city” and the “gaelic-playing rural areas” are noted and Fullerton’s name is mentioned in connection with this and somewhat contributing to this. People in Derry city viewed him as a local role-model while nationalists in rural areas felt he always has a soft attitude towards Britain, a fact which was allegedly backed up by the fact he played the “foreign game of soccer” according to Mahon.)

She also pointed me to O’Dochartaigh’s book and some newspaper and sport cuttings from the early 1980s and late 1970s. These mention his record goal even though he played only 4 times for the Derry City full-team and mentions the reasons for this return to St. Columb’s. The St. Columb’s College affair is also documented in later cuttings. More detailed articles should be available in the Derry Journal offices although I don’t currently have the time to visit there.

I have borrowed Walker’s book as I feel it is most useful. --Johnfullerton 15:23, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

  • Delete per pretty much everyone that isn't a sockpuppet. Vanity. --Last Malthusian 15:34, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
  • Keep Although I have a keen interest in football history, I’ll admit I have never heard of Fullerton in real-life but I can submit that I have 100 Years Of Football: The Fifa Centennial Book which has Derry City’s John Fullerton name on a page near the index of top-three record-holders in 1977 among a list of furthest distances scored from free-kicks.

He is ranked third here, however. This ranking includes the worldwide record, though, and the chap in second place is Peruvian. This backs up the claim about his professional footballing I feel. Definitly noteworthy. --88.107.17.245 16:14, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

  • Delete, HOAX. Googling "John Fullerton" with virtually any keyword from the article yields little to no results (any results are purely coincidental). Ral315 (talk) 16:58, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

Keep - I refer to the comment that the academic journal was obscure. I would argue that in the realm of northern irish criminology it is well known and is usually a set text on any criminolgical university syllabus. Outside of this it may be called obscure however, if this is not a forum for knowledge and historical insight which is not well known or has thusfar been overlooked in the public domain, then i fail to see the purpose of this site! I would also hope you disregard the views of the so called sock puppets, both for and against, and give regard to the original authors. (ciaranmcgonagle)

As regards the Hume speech, it was made at the past pupils reunion dinner in October of this year. Unfortunatly, Hume's speeches are referenced less and less now due to his illness.

Another thing you may want to consider is Irish president McAleese's speech, referenced at http://www.president.ie/index.php?section=5&speech=17&lang=eng which talks about the importance of the educators at st columbs college. - —the preceding unsigned comment is by 82.19.66.27 (talk · contribs)

Quote from Mary McAleese's speech: "Today, we look in awe at John [Hume] and his contemporaries in St Columb’s College - so many giants in so many very different spheres, some names well known inside their professional worlds, others household names like Phil Coulter, Bishop Edward Daly, Seamus Deane, Mark Durkan, Brian Friel, Seamus Heaney, tAthair Brendán O Doibhlin; and Martin O’Neill - each name eloquent testimony to a job well done by pupils, parents, teachers and management in the “education for life” community that is St. Columb’s". Spot the missing name... Tearlach 17:41, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
There are thousands of missing names. What does this prove?--Johnfullerton 17:45, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
It proves he's not cited specifically: evidence against your claim that among alumni he has a similar level of fame to Hume and Heaney. Tearlach 18:19, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
  • Comment If "hoax" accusations are going to be lazily hurled at the subject they'd need foundation. Does the fate of this article rely on Google now? I do not see where it is the official policy of Wikipedia for its articles to pass the "Google test" before being accepted. Source evidence has been provided to prove Fullerton's professional footballing and his notable role in NI politics. Doesn't this establish notability? By the way, it was 2004, not 2005, when Fullerton won the past-pupil award.--Johnfullerton 17:43, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

The speech - so many giants in so many very different spheres, some names well known inside their professional worlds, others household names like Phil Coulter, Bishop Edward Daly - I believe this relates to fullerton and people of that ilk. I think these sites have a duty to spread the word of lessor know people such as fullerton. I think if the site is allowed up it would create a hub or a basis for further works into fullerton and the body of work will expand from there. Surely if everything on this site could be referenced on google there would be no need for it?? This is the whole point of this community and people such as fullerton should be allowed, people who are unfashionable like this will never get the acclaim that they deserve in the normal arenas. - —the preceding unsigned comment is by Ciaranmcgonagle (talk · contribs)

I think these sites have a duty to spread the word of lessor know people such as fullerton.[sic]
Then start a website about him yourself. This is an encyclopedia, not a memorial to "lessor know people". - orioneight (talk) 18:02, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
And also see Wikipedia is not a propaganda machine. The "Google test" isn't a bad assessor of notability, but because it produced nothing, I tried newspaper archives: neither Newsbank nor the Times Digital Archive find any reference to him. Tearlach 18:19, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

It isnt a memorial - he is still alive. Furthermore, Fullerton is very important to the people of Derry. Are you saying their views arent important? - —the preceding unsigned comment is by 82.19.66.27 (talk · contribs)

The edits of 24.203.199.202 (talk · contribs) might be instructive. This person is running around adding information about someone named Herbert Becker, and adding to the request for article creation an image uploaded by User:Johnfullerton which he claims is a "friend" of John Fullerton, but whose name is not Herbert Becker. Also note that Fullerton is not listed as being a member of the Past Pupils' Association at http://www.stcolumbs.com/html/extra/extraset.html, let alone their Alumnus Illustrissimus. Also Googling for '"John Fullerton" Derry football' or '"John Fullerton" Londonderry football' brings up no hits for the person in the article. Zoe (216.234.130.130 21:18, 12 December 2005 (UTC))

  • Delete per nom Sycocowz 23:47, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
  • Delete per nom. -- Dalbury(Talk) 00:07, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
  • Delete per nom - the "references" consist of two sites that don't mention Fullerton by name and one that refers to him as "Deputy Head/Organise/Soccer Coach" -- if he's the correct J Fullerton. I was going to vote for a limited keep for verification until I saw the sockpuppet parade -- and suspected an organized campaign here. B.Wind 01:17, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
  • Well I can assure you there has been no organised campaign. The interference has clearly damaged the subjects credibility. I certianly would not want that.--Johnfullerton 11:21, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
  • Delete The annoying ad campaign overpowers his limited notability. Tom Harrison (talk) 03:15, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
  • Why should it? It's damage has frustrated me as much as anyone. It's like saying that a product with an poor ad campaign is not worth buying. The two are not synonomous.--Johnfullerton 11:18, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
  • The evidence is conclusive, this is a complete hoax. Delete. User:Zoe|(talk) 03:22, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
No, the evidence isn't conclusive. Where is your evidence?--Johnfullerton 11:19, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
  • Comment: Note sockpuppet creation of Overhead and free kick specialist, which I have afd'd. Tearlach 11:23, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
  • Seen as I have given sources for information but certain people choose to ignore them, I have scanned Walker's reference to Fullerton in his book, Past and Present, which I borrowed from the Central Library in Derry. It can be seen [here]. (I hope this is legal and does not breache copywrite.)--Johnfullerton 13:26, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
    • Interesting "book" and very well done. Too bad it has so many egregious misspellings. Could have done with an editor. Who wrote this "book" again? Zoe (216.234.130.130 16:25, 13 December 2005 (UTC))
    • Just curious, what is the book's ISBN number? - orioneight (talk) 17:41, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
Nevermind, it is ISBN 0853897697. — orioneight (talk) 17:58, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
And here is a scanned image from a St. Columb's publication of his winning the past-pupils award. [[1]] --Johnfullerton 13:30, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
You mean that image which you cropped to create the Tony Furey photo from and called a "personal photo"? Zoe (216.234.130.130 16:23, 13 December 2005 (UTC))
  • Comment As a past pupil I feel well placed to ad my voice to the fact that John Fullerton truly does deserve a mention amongst our illustrious allumni. He had a left foot like no other I've ever seen He was a gentleman and a scholar. From Mr Bunyip (BSc) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.211.102.175 (talk • contribs)

Well said Mr Bunyip. My only issue with this article is the failure to credit "Mr.F" (as my class called him) for blazing new sporting trails by bringing 'Strider' trainers to the forefront of athletic pursuits! Oh and he made my class run 2 laps of the Industrial estate for making our German Teacher cry, too. "Amazing times". D.Bronco M.A. B.A.(Hons) —the preceding unsigned comment is by 212.54.164.36 (talk • contribs)

  • Delete per nom. When an article is nominated for deletion like this, the best course of action is not to engage in vigorous dispute here, but to add good, verifiable citations to the article. Two days into the AfD the editors of the article have not done so. Unfortunately, the references currently in the article do not confirm the claims to notability being made here in AfD. Dpbsmith (talk) 19:45, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
  • Delete as per my reasons stated on the Talk:John Fullerton page. Stu 09:19, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

Has everyone just ignored the refernces posted by Johnfullerton  ???

  • Delete vanity. Possible Hoax. 200 Google hits when searching Fullerton and Northern Ireland. Non-Notable. Olorin28 01:08, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

First thing i noticed when reading this post, is that most of the "Delete" comments are being made by people living outside Ireland, north and south. Asking for proof because they have never heard of JF, well just going to make a few points, If you are not from the surrounding area then you are not going to have heard of them man, most of his work was done before the internet came about and i would wager that all of your so called refrences came from the internet, how many people went down to the derry journal office to get research, how many went to inish times for information. I am cuently studying in Derry and had to write a report on the history of derry's sport. Firstly i must thank wikipedia for providing information helping me in my report. Although the info was hard to come by i stumbled upon the report about john fullerton which led me to here where this debate is happening. Is it taking up so much space on your webpage that it should be deleted? If you were to ask the people of derry who they would rather have represented by their city John F or Nadine Coyle (whom you have on your site) i would say most of them would say john. As for the facts i don't know much about them but i'm guesing he is on this more becasue of his work for the funding rather than his footballing skills. To anyone not from Derry you will never understand what it was like during the troubles and for John and his co-workers to pull that off was an amazing feat from somone on "the city side." As for the football I couldn't give a damm I'm a GAA man to the end and i find it amazing that no one has mentioned that John played Gaa for donegal team. - unsigned post by 212.219.92.232 (talk · contribs)

When did he do these amazing feats, please? If they occurred prior to the time the intenet came about? Zoe (216.234.130.130 16:42, 15 December 2005 (UTC))
Also, the point is that the many users from outside Derry have heard of other names referred to, particularly Heaney, Hume and Martin O'Neill. He is simply not as famous as the rest: that is our objection, to the exaggeration of his fame. Tearlach 22:35, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

Keep Mr. Fullerton has contributed much to local sport here in Derry and it is only right that this page should be kept as a tribute. (Thebdogg 17:01, 15 December 2005 (UTC))

Wonderful. We're still waiting for evidence. Zoe (216.234.130.130 22:37, 15 December 2005 (UTC))

"Wonderful. We're still waiting for evidence" what is it with you people and your need for evidence, there has been evidence listed *free kick record *money obtained for school *Derry journal archive in the derry journal office (the journal website is no good for archived evidence the page dosn't go back far enough proof of this is i was searching the journal webpage for a report of the Derry barcelona match and it didn't have anything on it, so i suppose this never happened either??) as for when they happened i would say when fullerton was around 17-19 (if he was still in school playing football) now you gonna tell me that internet was about then?

  • Comment Just to expand on what Demiurge said, if you can't find anything to verify the guy's notability that the wider audience you're attempting to reach via Wikipedia can actually read (because it's in some office in Derry), then it's a good indication that he isn't notable to that wider audience. --Last Malthusian 11:18, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
  • Comment No, it's not a good indication of non-notability. The only thing it indicates is that the internet as we know it today was not in existence when Fullerton made the news. Also, the evidence that has been produced has been intentionally ignored. The victimisation continues...
Free John Fullerton!--Johnfullerton 11:53, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
....with every five gallons. - Just zis  Guy, you know? [T]/[C] AfD? 12:00, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
  • Is it judgment day today?--Johnfullerton 12:14, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
  • 'And lo, the Last Trump blew; and God came down upon Wikipedia, and to those Wikipedians that had lived pure lives he said: "Come with me; a Paradise awaits you of unending bluelinks and NPOVs as far as the eye can see; and truly, none of you shall know conflict nor strife again, for in Heaven we have devised a method of writing that all accept is better than both British and American English." And to those that had not lived pure lives, he spoke: "You I condemn to Hell; there you will be forced to translate articles from Tagalog and expand Wikipedia's excellent article on shoe polish for all eternity." And there was a great wailing and gnashing of teeth.' --Last Malthusian 12:34, 16 December 2005 (UTC)


The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.