Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Jimmy Kessler

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus. -- RG² 02:32, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Jimmy Kessler

Jimmy Kessler (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) – (View log)

Does not meet biography notability guidelines, and is basically an article about a local rabbi. No reliable third-party sources about him. Karanacs 22:03, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

• Delete no one special Yourname 00:16, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

*Strong Keep this article is relevant to Jewish Texan history. Bhaktivinode 00:20, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

• Comment Please review the speedy keep criteria. You are implying that the nomination is in bad faith. If you simply disagree that the subject is notable, please !vote "keep". --Dhartung | Talk 02:01, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

• Weak keep if better sourced. Notability is as founder of the Texas Jewish Historical Society . and as rabbi of what is apparently a major congregation. Must be sourced to show this. If he was important there will have been published articles about him. Bjaktivinode, see what you can do before the AfD ends. There's no point saying speedy keep when the article is marginal. DGG (talk) 01:16, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

• Comment Articles concerning Rabbi Kessler have been added. On the external links section is a book review of a text Rabbi Kessler wrote about the Galveston kehilla. The other articles adress his importance and notability as well. Thanks. Bhaktivinode 13:24, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

• Delete. Other than being one of numerous rabbis for a congregation, he founded a non-notable local historical society. This is not normally at the level of WP:BIO. --Dhartung | Talk 02:01, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
• Strong Keep Article has more than enough secondary sources available to include, although many, such as newspaper articles, are not referenced here and therefore should be added to strengthen the article. The comment is made that the Texas Jewish Historical Society (TJHS) is a "local" organization. The TJHS is the official body for recording Jewish activities and history in Texas....From a geographical and population standpoint, Texas occupies more land and has a larger population than what is considered the US' New England Region. One could pose the question: is an organization who's jurisdiction is comprised of the states of Maine, Mass, Conn. RI, Vermont and New Hampshire "local" or would it qualify as "regional"? Finally, as a highly visible religious figure, of a distinct minority group/religion, it is important to make sure information is preserved and maintained for others to learn from. Precedence for the Kessler article also exists on Wikipedia in the form of numerous wiki-articles on Catholic Bishops and other Christian church leaders who are only considered important in their particular state or region. Wiki (and encyclopedias in general) exist not only for reference but to open people's eyes and help them learn about aspects of the world around them...which they may not be exposed to otherwise. Nsaum75 06:58, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
• Comment Jimmy Kessler wrote the entry for the Handbook of Texas Online artilce on, "Jews" in Texas. This is another example showing Jimmy Kessler to be an expert on Jewish Texan history. [1] In the Temple B'nai Israel article of the Handbook of Texas, Jimmy Kessler is the subject of discussion. This article states that, "Kessler was the first native Texan to assume the leadership of the temple. He is also the founding president of the Texas Jewish Historical Society and the second rabbi of B'nai Israel to be elected to the Philosophical Society of Texas." [2] Bhaktivinode 12:59, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
  • Please see Wikipedia:Biographies_of_living_persons#Articles_about_living_people_notable_only_for_one_event - "if reliable sources only cover the person in the context of a particular event, then a separate biography is unlikely to be warranted." Also, per WP:BIO, "Trivial coverage of a subject by secondary sources may not be sufficient to establish notability." Karanacs 14:24, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
    • Please see the Texas Senate Resolution number 709. [3]. Jimmy Kessler has sufficient notability, and sources citing this notability have been provided. Thanks. Bhaktivinode 13:29, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
      • The Texas Senate Resolution refers to the Texas Jewish Historical Society (helping to establish its notability), but it is not specific to Kessler, and thus does not make Kessler notable. The sources that have been cited in the article are primarily self-published. Has he been covered in any newspapers or books, excluding trivial mentions? Karanacs 14:17, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
        • You requested coverage in newspaper articles. Rabbi recalls child’s eye view of Hanukkah and Kessler helps kicks off Kinky Friedman's Gov. Campaign Nsaum75 15:27, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
        • Neither of those mentions him in any depth at all. The second is a whopping four sentences that mentions that he is a) a rabbi and b) knows Kinky Friedman -- neither of which are notable in and of themselves. I can't get to the full article of the first one, but does it discuss Kessler, or focus more on Hannukah traditions (which are notable)? There needs to be more than just passing coverage of this man to establish why he is notable in an encyclopedia, and I haven't seen any provided yet, nor have I found any myself. Karanacs 15:39, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
          • Its free to register to view the whole article. It focuses on his life and experiences growing up jewish and specifically his Hannukah experiences as a kid. Please elaborate as to what kind of article you would consider appropriate to establish him as being notable? Reviews of his books by third parties? ... Nsaum75 15:47, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
            • I'm going by the guidelines set down in WP:V and WP:RS ("Articles should rely on reliable, third-party published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy....In general, the most reliable sources are peer-reviewed journals and books published in university presses; university-level textbooks; magazines, journals, and books published by respected publishing houses; and mainstream newspapers....Anyone can create a website or pay to have a book published, then claim to be an expert in a certain field. For that reason, self-published books, personal websites, and blogs are largely not acceptable as sources.") and WP:Notability, which further specifies that there be significant coverage, meaning "that sources address the subject directly in detail, and no original research is needed to extract the content. Significant coverage is more than trivial but may be less than exclusive." Karanacs 16:28, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
• Delete Per Dhartung. Being a mimister or rabbi does not byt itself justify a Wikipedia bio article, nor does founding a local historical society. Edison 14:31, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
• Delete. Not notable. He may be known in his community and founded a society of minor importance, but that's not enough to warrant a Wikipedia article. Crazysuit 19:00, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
• Strong KeepI believe it is very important. In Texas, Jewish populations existed outside the major cities like Dallas, San Antonio, Austin & Houston in the early part of the Twentieth Century. Cities Like Corsicana, Ennis, Waxahachie, Weatherford and towns of that size had thriving Jewish Communities that later moved to the large Cities because their Jewish Merchant Shop owner citizens moved there. This leaves the many notable citizens of these small towns with histories only a smaller society would better cover that. I believe it should be kept. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Titanic@swbell.net (talk • contribs) 23:00, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
• Note: This debate has been included in the list of Judaism-related deletions. IZAK 04:28, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
• Keep or Merge into History of the Galveston Jewish Community or Congregation B'nai Israel because this article is part of a group of articles relating to Jews and Judaism in Texas (the others being James Simon (Businessman), Henry Cohen Community House, Jimmy Kessler, Rosa Levin Toubin, Simon Theatre Simon family, Joe Levin (Businessman), Alex Simon, Sam H. Toubin) that have been nominated for deletion by User Karanacs (talk · contribs) (and another, Temple Freda nominated by another user) yet taken as a whole these articles are a valuable set of records about a topic in a state with relatively few Jews and with an even scantier record of notable Jews, Judaism and Jewish history in it. There is indeed a great need for an article about History of the Jews in Texas and these articles would all be good starting points and resources for it. This article, like the others in this group, cite adequate sources and meet the minimal requirements to be kept. The nominator is requested to reconsider her nominations of these articles. Thank you, IZAK 05:00, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
  • As has been stated before, if the notability occurs only when the articles are taken collectively, then the content should be moved to another article, such as History of the Galveston Jewish Community and History of the Brenham Jewish Community. The individual articles do not establish notability. Karanacs 16:32, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
    • Karanacs: So then the correct thing for you to have done was to (a) contact the editor/s of the articles you had questions and doubts about and (b) to try and work on combining them into more unified topics, and only as a last resort, (c) requested that they be merged into the History of the Galveston Jewish Community and History of the Brenham Jewish Community. Since these are non-controversial topics it should have been a fairly straightforward thing to do. Thanks, IZAK 20:02, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
      • I still stand by my original assertion that the Kessler article should stand on its own. There are newspaper articles, however, since many newspapers do not maintain full online archives (maybe a week or months worth of articles at best), its hard to find them in a simple online search. I am working on obtaining online versions of them so they may be referenced here. Nsaum75 23:01, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
• REQUEST: In order to reach a greater consensus about the related "Texas Jews articles" that have been nominated for deletion, please see and add your views at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Judaism#Nominations of Texas Jews articles for deletion. Thank you, IZAK 00:16, 26 October 2007 (UTC)
• Keep - The sources do appear reliable and establish notability. --Oakshade 16:25, 26 October 2007 (UTC)
• Keep per Oakshade and IZAK. -- Lchaimgirl 07:15, 27 October 2007 (UTC)
• Delete The article seems to be very well written and sourced, but I don't believe he is notable--his scope of effect is too small. Merge info to History of the Galveston Jewish Community. —ScouterSig 02:56, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment You agree that the article is well sourced. The point of the debate so far has been "do the sources establish notability?" As you have stated, the article is well sourced. Its sources have established its notability. Bhaktivinode 04:09, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
• Delete per nom and Dhartung. Doctorfluffy 22:53, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
• Strong Keep!! This debate is a moot point. The argument whether the Rabbi is wiki worthy is just a smoke screen. This man is an important figure to Texas Jews and deserves to be recognized. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.151.208.62 (talk) 03:42, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
• comment if he did receive an honorary degree from the JTS as well as his ordination, then he might well be notable, depending upon their practices in this respect. But this needs to be documented from third party sources. there should be such. DGG (talk) 04:32, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
• Comment Rabbi Kessler's honorary Doctorate has been documented on the Hebrew Union College website. [4] Bhaktivinode 04:50, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
• Comment Another reference, Texas Senate Resolution 709 states that, "The Texas Jewish Historical Society began in 1980 after Rabbi Jimmy Kessler published a letter in Jewish newspapers." [5] Bhaktivinode 05:03, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
• Comment Updated and expanded with articles from The Galveston County Daily News. Bhaktivinode 05:51, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
• Strong Keep The references cited in the updated version of this article are diverse, reliable and most importantly they establish the notability of Rabbi Jimmy Kessler enough to meet Wikipedia's notability requirements. Thanks. Bhaktivinode 06:16, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
• Comment added info regarding Kessler's membership on the Commission for Sustaining Rabbinic Education and his membership on Editorial Advisory Board for the Texas State Historical Association's Handbook of Texas where he also holds the position of Jewish History Editor. [6] and [7] Nsaum75 06:34, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

• Comment added that Rabbi Kessler wrote Henry Cohen: The Life of a Frontier Rabbi which was pubilshed in 1997. The Galveston County Daily News has reviewed this work. [8]

• Keep. This one just skirts by WP:BIO so not the biggest keep endorsement, but I am erring on the side of inclusion just to be safe based on the references given so far. Maybe it will improve over time. Mzoli's sure did. Burntsauce 22:36, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
• Keep per above. Yahel Guhan 01:02, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.