Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Jimmy Harte
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- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was delete. The best keep rationale was provided by RGTraynor who provided evidence of some coverage in secondary sources, however this coverage does not seem to be significant and as such the subject fails WP:BIO#Politicians. Absolutely no prejudice against recreation if Harte's notability increases.--Bigtimepeace | talk | contribs 05:42, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Jimmy Harte
Non-notable politician from Letterkenny in County Donegal, Ireland. A local councillor (so not automatically notable per WP:BIO#Politicians), and there is no sign of the substantial coverage in independent reliable sources required by WP:BIO's main criteria. BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 17:36, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of Ireland-related deletion discussions. —BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 17:37, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
- Keep It seems to be notable. It just needs a reference or two. But thats no reason to delete it Ijanderson977 (talk) 21:13, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
- Reply. It needs evidence of notability, per WP:BIO, not just an assertion that he "seems to be notable". Per WP:BIO#Politicians
"a reference or two" is not enough: we need substantial coverage, otherwise the article will be deleted, like dozens of other non-notable biographies every week. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 22:18, 30 April 2008 (UTC)Just being an elected local official, or an unelected candidate for political office, does not guarantee notability, although such people can still be notable if they meet the primary notability criterion of "significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject."
- Reply. It needs evidence of notability, per WP:BIO, not just an assertion that he "seems to be notable". Per WP:BIO#Politicians
- Keep I'm pretty confused here. It seems to me that according to WP:BIO#Politicians he is automatically notable. Please remember: members and former members of a national, state or provincial legislature. As a member of the Donegal County Council, wouldn't this make him clearly covered?--Aldux (talk) 15:00, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
- Reply Donegal County Council is not a "provincial legislature" -- it doesn't have the power to pass legislation, and has never had such a power. The Northern Ireland Assembly is a provincial legislature, but a county council is an elected adminstrative body rather than legislative body. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 15:19, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
- If what you say is true, than it must be immediately made clear at WP:BIO. North Americans and Aussies probably take this simply for granted, as they live in federal states, but in the rest of the world this notion is highly confused and blurred; I myself would have difficulties awnsering if Italian regions are in or out of such a definition.--Aldux (talk) 15:43, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
- Surely it's fairly clear that a County council does not pass legislation?
In any case, there have been plenty of precedents at AFD where it has been accepted that local councillors are not automatically notable: see e.g. Clifford T. Reid and Sahron Haughey. It doesn't mean that councillors cannot be notable, it just means that they need to demonstrate notability in the usual way through substantial coverage in reliable sources: e.g. Daithí Doolan was kept, because such coverage exists. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 16:19, 2 May 2008 (UTC)- Sorry, I don't know if you're right or wrong, but all the examples you gave me are seriously flawed and inaccurately described. To begin with Daithi Doolean, the motivation for keep wasn't at all the coverage: the closing administrator was very clear: "Regardless of coverage or not, city councilmen from major cities [...] are inherently notable". As for the other two, Clifford T. Reid was a member of the Athy Urban District Council, which means a sub-sub-national elected body; to be sub-national, he would have to be a member of the Kildare County Council, from which the Athy Urban District Council depended; so it was an obvious delete. An obvious delete was also Sahron Haughey, as it also is a sub-sub-national body. To be sub-national, he would have to be a member of the Northern Ireland Assembly.--Aldux (talk) 17:15, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
- Look, it's not complicated: Donegal County Council does not pass legislation, so it is not a legislative body, and therefore there is no automatic presumption of notability. That's all; there's no need to get into theological distinctions about whether the existence of the NI Assembly makes district councils in Northern Ireland a lower level of body than district councils in England.
If you want this article to be kept, it needs evidence of substantial coverage in independent reliable sources, to demonstrate notability. So far we have evidence that he exist and holds office, but that's not the same as notability. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 18:03, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
- Look, it's not complicated: Donegal County Council does not pass legislation, so it is not a legislative body, and therefore there is no automatic presumption of notability. That's all; there's no need to get into theological distinctions about whether the existence of the NI Assembly makes district councils in Northern Ireland a lower level of body than district councils in England.
- Sorry, I don't know if you're right or wrong, but all the examples you gave me are seriously flawed and inaccurately described. To begin with Daithi Doolean, the motivation for keep wasn't at all the coverage: the closing administrator was very clear: "Regardless of coverage or not, city councilmen from major cities [...] are inherently notable". As for the other two, Clifford T. Reid was a member of the Athy Urban District Council, which means a sub-sub-national elected body; to be sub-national, he would have to be a member of the Kildare County Council, from which the Athy Urban District Council depended; so it was an obvious delete. An obvious delete was also Sahron Haughey, as it also is a sub-sub-national body. To be sub-national, he would have to be a member of the Northern Ireland Assembly.--Aldux (talk) 17:15, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
- Surely it's fairly clear that a County council does not pass legislation?
- If what you say is true, than it must be immediately made clear at WP:BIO. North Americans and Aussies probably take this simply for granted, as they live in federal states, but in the rest of the world this notion is highly confused and blurred; I myself would have difficulties awnsering if Italian regions are in or out of such a definition.--Aldux (talk) 15:43, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
- Reply Donegal County Council is not a "provincial legislature" -- it doesn't have the power to pass legislation, and has never had such a power. The Northern Ireland Assembly is a provincial legislature, but a county council is an elected adminstrative body rather than legislative body. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 15:19, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
- Delete - no evidence of notability. No references other than personal website. Warofdreams talk 00:56, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
- Weak Keep: I'm not convinced of the notability of his position either. That being said, there are 22 hits on the Irish Google News. [1]. RGTraynor 16:35, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
- Reply Thanks for that link. I see several stories which mention Harte, mostly in the context of the elections, but I don't see that he is the subject of any substantial coverage, as required by WP:BIO#Politicians. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 01:09, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
- Delete. Council members don't achieve notability by being on a (community, village, city, or county) council - for that matter, some mayors would have difficulty clearing the notability bar. More is needed here. B.Wind (talk) 05:04, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
