Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Jesuit Ivy

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result of the debate was no consensus. IP voting not counted, but rationales are considered. - Mailer Diablo 03:55, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Jesuit Ivy

This is a well-written article, but what damns it prima facie is the opening sentence: The "Jesuit Ivy" is a nickname given to Boston College in Chestnut Hill, Massachusetts. So, basically, this article is about an institution's nickname. Can you imagine anyone writing a "Penn State" article this size, just because it happes to be the nickname of Pennsylvania State University? This smacks of academic boosterism (which is not welcome on Wikipedia); surely no one's contributed a thing to this article aside from BC students and affiliates. What makes it an even graver crime than Southern Ivies or Public Ivies or Little Ivies or Bakersfield, California-area Ivies is that it's just a nickname for an institution with a separate article on Wikipedia. StarryEyes 02:53, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

  • Delete as nominator. StarryEyes 02:53, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
  • Merge any usable content to Boston College and redirect. —porges(talk) 03:04, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
  • Merge usable content per porges, but no redirect. I agree with everything you say, Starry, but there is some worthwhile and objective content here. We have to get rid of the "nickname page", though. This is like having separate articles for Joe DiMaggio and Joltin' Joe. And as for a redirect, it'd be lending credence to said boosters. After all, "Jesuit Ivy" -wikipedia garners a whopping 111 hits on Google. Raggaga 03:12, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
  • Merge and no redirect per Raggaga --Deville (Talk) 03:36, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
  • Merge anything useful with Boston College. Redirect is probably needed per GFDL, but the page could be moved to a less boosterish title before redirecting. u p p l a n d 04:42, 28 April 2006 (UTC) On further thought, there is no reason not to redirect from Jesuit Ivy, as it is obviously a real term with a story behind it, as Hoopydink notes below. u p p l a n d 09:20, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
  • Merge as per Uppland: redirect is needed and doesn't really do any harm. Fut.Perf. ☼ 06:56, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
  • Merge per Uppland and Future Perfect at Sunrise. JIP | Talk 07:50, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
  • Merge per Uppland Keep per the lengthiness of the Boston College article and upon reflection, the validity of the article to stand alone Hoopydink 05:11, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
    • A note to the nom - probably would've been better to start a discussion on the talk page rather than propose scrapping the article in its entirety, as you said yourself it is a well-written article and I'd be hard-pressed to eliminate any of it when merged onto the Boston College article, as there is no blantant academic boosterism, as you label it. Perhaps next time, try to assume good faith. Plus, your Penn State comparison is a bit off, as there is a story behind the name "Jesuit Ivy". Had there been a separate article entitled "BC", your comparison would've been right on point. Hoopydink 09:06, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
      • There's a story behind lots of nicknames. We don't have separate articles for Marilyn Manson and Brian Warner, do we? No blatant boosterism? Calling youself the X Ivy, as the nom alludes to, is booster pratice number one. Also, while I'm not assuming bad faith, I do notice a predominance of Boston-related edits, Mr. H, particularly for a certain Boston College High School. Raggaga 18:51, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
      • I believe that the proper comparison to BC being called a Jesuit Ivy would be The U and The University of Miami. The U is a disambig page which leads to an article describing the story behind the nickname that has been conferred to the University of Miami. Since Boston College or the insular community did not create the name, but rather an outside source (John F. Kennedy), there is no boosterism. The article does provide reasoning behind the name. If there's a bias or err in judgement on my part being suggested, I'd refer you to the Boston College High School article in question, as I'm probably the primary editor and take a look. You'll see that there are no weasel words or boosterism. It's written in respects to the NPOV policy (much like the Jesuit Ivy article). Also, if you do check it out, why not stay a while and edit it a bit? Hoopydink 04:05, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
  • Merge to Boston College, keep it as a redirect. Its just a nickname of that place, what's the big deal? A mention in the main article is enough. --Terence Ong 11:36, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
    • Aye, but it's not a real nickname. It's entirely self-styled. If someone wrote an article called The Best College in America and it was all about Boston College but it had some usable content, I would happily merge, but I'd be loath to redirect. Boosterism must not be countenanced. Raggaga 19:14, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
It is not "self-styled" as you claim. This is pretty clearly stated in the article. Droitet 15:37, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep -Since this is not just a name for the college but of JFK's actual speech. I also think its significance goes further than BC, so it would be wrong to jsut merge it to the BC article. The Jesuit Ivy speech was an important turning point, addressing the status of Catholics in public life, Church-State politics (and Kennedy's own future as the first Catholic US president), the role of Catholic universities and their position relative to American higher education. Perhaps these issues, which are touched on in the present article, should be made more explicit. 216.236.252.235 18:09, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
    • Note: Anon user, most of whose contributions are (surprise!) Boston College-related. Raggaga 18:51, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep. I think it should be kept as a separate article since it's the name of the speech itself. Also the nominator's objection that it's academic boosterism doesnt really hold here. It's not like BC woke up and decided to call *itself* the "Jesuit Ivy." Kennedy did. --Sader07 06:07, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment: I think the boosterism problem is not so much in the actual nickname, but with having that nickname as a separate entry. Redirecting it and mentioning Kennedy's speech in its proper historical context in the BC entry would be just fine. u p p l a n d 06:25, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep and add more context here. Most of this article would be pretty tangential in an article about Boston College itself. 216.227.122.37 05:03, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep. The Boston College article is already too long and should probably be broken down into sub articles. -136.167.255.119 03:11, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep as per above... Also, adding a section in the BC article about specifically this nickname wouldn't really make sense in the main BC article. The speech is notable for BC and warrants a mention in the main article, but not as long of a mention as the Jesuit Ivy article is. The information in the Jesuit Ivy article is worthy to be kept in Wikipedia and doesn't belong in the main BC article; thus, it should be kept in a separate article. Moreover the article is very well written and it would be a shame to lose all that hard work. Also, many things would need to be removed such as the wikisource link and the excerpt from the actual speech. PaulC/T+ 07:51, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
  • Merge Doesn't warrant its own article. Eusebeus 22:00, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep This "nickname" doesn't have any significance outside of the conext of the speech, which in turn is too detailed/tangential for the necissary elaboration in the Boston college article. Invincoli 00:57, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
  • Strong Keep The reasons for deleting this article (that it's just a nickname, that it's boosterism, and that it's self-styled) appear to have been misguided/misinformed. The reason for merging it (again that it's just a nickname) is inaccurate/inappropriate. Droitet 15:29, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep per above. "Jesuit Ivy" has more historical legitimacy than Little Ivies, Southern Ivies, etc. and should be explained in its own article. 140.247.241.128 18:55, 3 May 2006 (UTC)


The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.