Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Jeffree Star (2nd nomination)

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was Keep article on artist - Merge article on album. CitiCat ^♫ 03:25, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

Jeffree Star and Plastic Surgery Slumber Party

Earlier debates here, here, there, also here, here, again here, here, some more here, here as well, here too, and finally here.

The Jeffree Star saga continues. This singer's notability stems primarily from Myspace and a few newspapers remarking on how he once hit a fan. There seems to be little here except for fifteen minutes of fame, and fifteen months of self-promotion. Note the many, many recreations in the deletion log, and related saltings. The article seems to fail WP:MUSIC, WP:BIO, and WP:CRYSTAL. >Radiant< 09:00, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

• Keep - He may not be that notable in the big scheme of things, but the article is sourced from a good spread of sources, not all of them focused solely on him hitting a fan. For instance, the AZ Star and LA Weekly articles linked from the page are interviews, more biographical than just about a single incident. I don't know much about the history of previous incarnations of this article, but at a glance, I'd say the current version seems well-sourced and asserts the notability of Star well enough. Or at least better than some articles I've come across... --clpo13 09:18, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
• Comment: I am not going to get into the discussion on Star because I don't have feelings either way on the subject but you didn't mention the Album in your reason. What issues do you have with that. To me, the article seems to be no different from hundreds of album articles that I have seen on wiki. And what are the "related saltings" you talk about? Postcard Cathy 10:59, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
  • Iff the article on the artist is deleted, the one on the album should also go. By "related saltings" I mean that this article has been recreated under a number of different titles, and deleted/salted as a result. >Radiant< 11:12, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
  • Let's get our terminology right: the subject in question is NOT an album, it's an EP or single (running about 12 minutes total or 15 minutes total, depending on whether you count the remix), and as far as I can tell it seems to be a download-only, with no apparent physical release. It's also self-released--i.e. not part of any label or company. While it's true WP has plenty of articles on recordings, self-published or vanity-press items are always deleted. Andrew Lenahan - Starblind 17:02, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
• Delete per WP:MUSIC. Primary claim to notability is being advertised as part of the True Colors Tour, but according to the article Star didn't actually perform. Andrew Lenahan - Starblind 13:26, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
• Delete fails to pass WP:BIO, WP:MUSIC criteria, fails to prove notability. Artist is not signed to any label.  ALKIVAR™ ☢ 16:20, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
• You missed one DRV in the intro: the one that allowed for recreation because there were enough sources to back it up. There are three media sources in the article, and the plan to create a reality show centred around Star seems fairly notable. However, I'd still be happier with more sources, so just a weak keep. Tony Fox (arf!) review? 20:13, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
  • But we don't keep things based on possible future notability. The planned show isn't even on IMDB yet. Andrew Lenahan - Starblind 23:10, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
    • Agreed, but it's documented in the source provided in the article, and Variety's a pretty good source. The lack of more strong sources is why I'm going with a weak keep. (Oh, and delete the album.) Tony Fox (arf!) review? 15:53, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
• Delete Article is about a musician, however it does not satisfy criteria for inclusion as a musician or band. NN 'internet star.' the_undertow ^talk 22:15, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
• Keep Jeffree Star, get rid of all other related articles. This guy's got enough sources to put together a passing article. I agree that his most notable gig is the True Colors Tour, although the article claims he was a no show, the fact that they asked him to perform and that he still adorns that website shows me that they felt him a relevant and popular performer. - hahnchen 23:44, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
• Keep Jeffree Star and delete any articles about his albums/EPs/singles. After numerous deletion reviews, the subject has moved up from being known only on Myspace to at least getting some mentions in mainstream media sources. User:Fan-1967 once said about Star, "Strange outrageous transgender people have the same freedom to be non-notable as anyone else," [1] which was apt at the time; nevertheless, consensus can change. --Metropolitan90 03:55, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

• Keep - I can't think of a single good reason for Jeffree's article to be deleted, except for some wikiusers' distaste for transsexuals. And hey, that's a good enough reason according to the Consensus Policy, but let's be serious for a minute: there's not a way in the world Jeffree Star isn't notable enough for Wikipedia. He has a reality TV show in development, a #1 hit in the Dance Charts, several soldout tours, over 600,000 Myspace friends, an appearance on America's Next Top Model, guest-starred in numerous music videos, and his music was used in the show Next. So yes you can still vote to delete him, but don't claim it's about notability. Just say, "I'm homophobic and don't think transvestites should be allowed on Wikipedia" Blahmicho 05:14, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

That comment is way out of line. Show me in WP:BAND where the criteria has been satisfied. This argument has nothing to do with sexual preference. As of today, MySpace friends counts are not generally accepted as criteria for inclusion ;) the_undertow ^talk 05:30, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

If someone had provided evidence that he really had a #1 hit on the Billboard dance chart and several sold out tours, this article would never even have been nominated for deletion in the first place. I haven't seen such evidence yet. --Metropolitan90 05:46, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

http://www.buzznet.com/web/music/journals/entry/134937 for the Dance Chart, http://collect.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=music.showDetails&Band_Show_ID=18482453&friendid=71676, proof of at least 1 sold-out show. Blahmicho 06:12, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

Just going by WP:MUSIC here... iTunes is not a 'national music chart.' MySpace is not a Reliable Source and you would need evidence of a national tour. the_undertow ^talk 06:48, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

• Keep Jeffree, delete the album/EP/singles. Per clpo13 above. -- SatyrTN (talk | contribs) 05:49, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
• Keep Jeffree and merge the album/EP/singles into article. I've been reading about him for almost two years and am a bit shocked he's up for deletion. Article should simply be tagged for whatever issue du jour fits. Benjiboi 10:11, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

Comment I'm not familiar with protocols for albums having their own article, if it's standard that an artist's albums each have their own article then keep that as well. Benjiboi 23:43, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

• Keep Jeffree Star is more notable than many of the professional athelets that have two-sentance pages on wikipedia. Also, The attempt to delete his page feels to me like people just don't want him on Wikipedia for trivial reasons. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.231.151.54 (talk • contribs) — 63.231.151.54 (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
• Delete per Radiant! and WP:MUSIC. A MySpace fad who is known for his extraordinary appearance and not for his music or anything is not notable. I don't see which criterion in WP:MUSIC this artist satisfies. Maybe criterion 1, but I doubt that, because the references say things like "the queer icon on the internet", which refers to his status as an internet fad, and not to his status as a musician. There aren't any reliable sources who have written about him as a musician, as far as I can tell. SalaSkan 21:04, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
• Keep Jeffree and Merge the album into it; the fact that he toured with Peaches makes him immediately notable, but I think collectively the many sources make him basically notable anyway. Remember, WP:MUSIC is a guideline. TAnthony 21:19, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

All notability standards are guidelines. Care to expand on your thought? the_undertow ^talk 21:47, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps the guidelines should be re-examined and one added to allow for artists who have a reality series about them added. Benjiboi 20:40, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

If someone is the main subject of a reality television series, the person will probably qualify under WP:BIO for the provision relating to "television personalities ... [w]ith significant roles in notable films, television, stage performances, and other productions". So we don't need to add another criterion. (Anyway, Jeffree Star's reality show has not yet made it to air.) --Metropolitan90 06:10, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

• Keep per Jeffree Star the subject is notable enough to be included and satisfies our guidelines for inclusion. Burntsauce 17:49, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
  • Could you say which criteria in WP:MUSIC this artist satisfies? SalaSkan 19:54, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
• Weak Delete Keep the biography, but merge the Album Doesn't satisfy any criteria in WP:MUSIC, in that this person doesn't meet any listed notability criteria for musicians. Over 600,000 google hits for the phrase "Jeffree Star" does indicate that the subject is quite possibly non-trivial, could somebody find a way to satisfy one of the 12 criteria in all that? If the possible reality show mentioned in the article airs, then it could be enough to push it over the line for example (and recreate the article if it is deleted). This one appears to be a borderline case, and if actually solidly meeting one of the WP:MUSIC notability criteria can be established I'd happily change to keep. --Wingsandsword 20:51, 20 July 2007 (UTC) The article, as written now does appear to sufficiently assert notability and has ample independent sources. While not necessarily notable enough purely as a musician (and the album alone does not appear to meet those criteria), as a general biography in WP:BIO of a public figure to meet the threshold of notability required for wikipedia. --Wingsandsword 01:26, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

• Comment This is a new artist whose music has only been released digitally and debut album was four months ago so most WP:MUSIC notability criteria could only be in the future although he does perform internationally. Under WP:Bio notability criteria, however he certainly has a "large fan base or a significant "cult" following." Benjiboi 21:27, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

• Keep Jeffrey Star; merge album article into his. Notability has been extablished with a variety of sources. Aleta 18:26, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
• Comment Article rewritten. Benjiboi 22:25, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
• Strong Keep Per Benjiboi's detailed efforts to rewrite the article. Also, the topic has received enough coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject to write a neutral and unbiased compilation of previously written, verifiable facts. Merge Plastic Surgery Slumber Party into Jeffree Star. Note to closer - I incorporated the material from Plastic Surgery Slumber Party into Jeffree Star. -- Jreferee ^(Talk) 06:10, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
• Note: This debate has been included in the list of sexuality and gender-related deletions. -- Jreferee ^(Talk) 06:15, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
• Comment I think the slumber party album article should be kept as well, it has been sourced and seems as good if not better than many other album articles that don't seem to have such interest in deletion. Benjiboi 06:46, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
• Weak keep Trannies ain't my thing baby, but much respect to the creator the article who has put in enough work and referencing to make it a worthy encyclopedia entry - just.. ♦ Dr. Blofeld ♦ ^{"Expecting you?" Contribs} 17:39, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

You may wish to learn about "trannies" more respectfully called transexuals but Star is not considered one although he is in the "trans" spectrum for his cross-dressing and drag sensibilities. Benjiboi 17:54, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

If anything wouldn't Jeffree be a transvestite? And couldn't that be what Blofeld meant? 74.79.33.10 01:13, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

• Keep, most of the information is cited and is mentioned in mainstream media sources (besides MySpace where his fame came from). But, the article needs to be re-written in encyclopedic form.--milk the cows (Talk) 01:40, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
• Keep as rewritten, the article has nearly three dozen reliable sources about the subject, far exceeding WP:BIO guidelines. Yamaguchi先生 04:16, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

KEEP JEFFREE STAR! She is a huge influence in pop culture and has millions of kids and adults fawning over her daily. Huge influence, and hell there are even jstar shirts in the mall. that's pretty noteworthy.

• Keep - MOST DEFINITELY KEEP THIS ARTICLE Jefree Star deserves this page just as much as everyone else on wikipedia!!!!! xkelleyx —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.184.232.202 (talk) — 67.184.232.202 (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
• Keep- What would be the point in deleting it? To show that this website discriminates against people who are unique and different?? Yeah, that really makes sense, not. What's the difference in deleting this page and leaving up pages about cults and terrorists? It's not fair that just because people are cooler than you, you have to push them under the rug to feel better about yourself. -Caity
  • Comment It's not about "fairness", articles can only be on wikipedia if they meet certain criteria for inclusion: Notability (WP:NOTE), Verifiability (WP:VERIFY) and No Original Research (WP:NOR), and this is being interpreted by some as running afoul of the inclusion standards for notability of musicians (WP:MUSIC). "Coolness" or not being "unique and different" have nothing to do with it. The people who are supporting deletion are doing so because we have specific standards for inclusion of a musician, and being a myspace celebrity with a self-published album only available for download doesn't really meet those standards. Now, I'm supporting keeping it because there is evidence that this person is notable as a general celebrity, but not as a musician. Framing the article as one about a musician will make people want to delete it as not suitable for wikipedia. --Wingsandsword 15:42, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
• Keep, if not as a musician, then certainly as a bigraphy since it exceedes WP:BIO guidelines. Perhaps removing redundant information. →Gyakusetsu 05:57, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
• Keep, Jeffree Star has played in multiple shows, has over 21 million page views, 631,000 fans, and an album on iTunes, AND another album coming out soon. He's also been in multiple music magazines, not to mention newspapers, and he models for Tarina Tarantino's jewelry line. He has more than enough notability to stay here. Oh, and might I add he has a TV show coming out soon. ASHTONZANECKI 19:30, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
  • Ah yes, and I forgot that he does conform with WP:MUSIC, he has had a charted hit on the iTunes charts. He out sold Justin Timberlake and all the others in album sales for three days straight, and Plastic Surgery Slumber Party (the song) is on the Dance charts and has been since the album release. It was also #1 on that chart for a day or more. ASHTONZANECKI 19:55, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
• Keep: Why not keep it? Is he less of a human because of the fact that he doesn't meet damn wikipedia standards? He's more famous than a lot of the F-list actors/singers that have pages. As long as the article is neutral in facts, it should be kept. If it isn't, I will question wikipedia's morals because I believe that you admins want it deleted because of who he is. MyLastView
• Keep: He is notable enough. With a TV show coming out, an EP that hit #1 on the dance section of iTunes and apparel in a major retail chain, I don't see why this is even a question. Wikipedia should strive to provide information on everything it can. If it has articles on things like the color green or a fork, why not Jeffree Star? People would read his article more than one about forks... Nateabel 02:51, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
  • You'd be surprised. Wikipedia is not just for new and upcoming topics, but also for common and familiar topics. If Jeffree Star lives to be 100 and sells as many albums as Elvis Presley and The Beatles combined, there will still be more people who use forks than listen to his music. --Metropolitan90 07:18, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
• Keep: JEFFREE STAR is more than a gay cross-dresser. He's the attitude of a new generation against the pressure media creates for teenages to appear beautiful.
• Keep still passes WP:BIO, article is referenced and fine. Giggy _U^CP 00:12, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.