Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Jeff Rosenbaum (2nd nomination)

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was deleted ~ Riana ⁂ 01:17, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Jeff Rosenbaum

Jeff Rosenbaum (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) – (View log)

A previous AfD ended in delete. The article was later recreated and, despite the caution from ArbCom and basic WP:COI policies, has almost solely been developed and maintained by the subject of the article. (User:Rosencomet is reasonably believed to be Jeff Rosenbaum according to the findings of an Arbcom case.) When I recently began overhauling the article along with User:Kathryn NicDhàna, it looked like this. Looking hard at the references, Kathryn and I found them to be ridiculously padded. After revamping the article, it looked like this. Look at the talk page for some discussion between us and Rosencomet about the sources we took out. Many simply included his name in a list of "thank you"s in a book introduction, or a quote from him about the Starwood Festival (of which he is the primary producer and promoter). None of the references cited any of the article content, as they were about Starwood, not Rosenbaum. Few of the remaining sources in the article are WP:V or WP:RS. If you look at the Reference section, you'll see most of the sources are to the website of his group (rosencomet dot com). His published work consists of part of an article in a rather limited circulation zine Green Egg and a one page interview with him, again discussing Starwood, not any details about himself. The music is on tapes/CDs published by his group (self-published) and the spoken word entries listed are panel discussions that he apparently moderated (again, self-published) at these events. I looked for sources while revamping the article and the best are in it now. I've put a fair bit of work into this article, trying to improve it and its sources, but he still doesn't seem notable by Wikipedia standards. And I don't think there are enough good sources to support an article about him. Pigman☿ 06:19, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

• Delete, does not seem to be notable in the wider community, as there are very few non-trivial third-party references about him. His festival may be notable, but he is not. Lankiveil (talk) 06:44, 28 December 2007 (UTC).
• Redirect to Starwood Festival - nearly all sources are in connection with the festival. Addhoc (talk) 12:22, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
• merge or delete both this and the ACE article, I missed this AfD tag for some reason and was just about to place a notice suggesting a merge into ACE. An article about Association for Consciousness Exploration could discuss both Starwood and Winterstar symposium- if either of these are very notable despite the hard work of this one particular Wikipedia editor, whose username may be inappropriate really as it is too linked to the group and person concerned. Merkinsmum 13:29, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
• Delete per nom. --Tom 14:50, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
• Delete - Agree with Merkinsmum and others. Article should be about Jeff Rosenbaum and not his associated enterprises, merchandising sites, etc. Unless there are enough WP:RS per WP:V references for Jeff Rosenbaum as a standalone article on the merits of his achievements rather than on the names, products etc. he has promoted , this article should be deleted as non notable. Promoters on the level of Bill Graham are notable in their own right, aside from the acts, merchandise they promote. Mattisse 15:08, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
• Redirect - per Merkinsmum. I think an article about ACE, with subsections on Starwood, Winterstar, and other projects, might pass muster. But only if it's done by people without COI. I'd say "merge and redirect", but there's very little in this article that's not already covered in the others. Maybe a couple sentences. - Kathryn NicDhàna ♫♦♫ 18:29, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
• Delete - doesn't have sufficient non-trivial coverage from reliable sources. (In fact, as this article has been deleted previously, shouldn't it have been speedied as a re-creation of deleted material?) Terraxos (talk) 21:37, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
• Keep by no means am I an expert on this subject, but I trust the judgment of Fred Bauder in the previous discussion and believe this person to be notable in Neo-Pagan circles. Coccyx Bloccyx (talk) 23:15, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
• Comment - It is true that Fred Bauder voted to Keep this article in AfD when it was in Arbitration and Fred Bauder was one of the active arbitrators. Mattisse 23:33, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

WARNING - Rosencomet is now engaging in WP:CANVASSing, specifically of the Wikipedia:CANVASS#Campaigning and Wikipedia:CANVASS#Votestacking sort, as he is only posting to people that have supported his position in past AfDs or content disputes: User:Viriditas, User:Septegram, User:Modemac, User:Dave Null. Rosencomet, I will repeat this on your talk page, but if you continue after this warning, what you are doing is a blockable offense, especially as you have done it multiple times before. This is your only warning. - Kathryn NicDhàna ♫♦♫ 20:37, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

• Keep Jeff is a notable figure in various spiritual communities and in the world music field as a record producer and performer. I have seen him sit in with Muruga & Stephen Kent during Rhythm Fest 2 at Nelson Ledges, OH and with George Clinton at the Taste of Cleveland show. I have also been to several of his lectures at various festivals. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Vittala (talk • contribs) 19:51, 29 December 2007 (UTC) — Vittala (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

• comment notability is not inherited, no matter who he happens to be sitting with or speaking to. Merkinsmum 00:19, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

• comment Vittala is saying he saw him "Sit in with" these acts, as in "performed with on stage as a guest, rather than being a member of the band". Not "sit with". Just a clarification. Rosencomet (talk) 17:30, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

I saw him dancing with the Pope, but unless his outstanding macarena has been noted at length in WP:RS, (for which unfortunately neither Vittala nor I, nor anyone discussing their memories on a wiki qualify) it's just my anecdote. Also he's involved in organising a couple of events, acts are bound to get on with him, if it may get them work. Rosencomet- you're defending arguments at an AfD on yourself- don't you feel bad and think you should step back a bit? Yes I know it was just a 'clarification' but even so. Merkinsmum 13:35, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

• Delete per Pigman's research. Lack of independent sources, virtually nothing not related to the Starwood Festival (invokes WP:BLP1E IMO) and serious vanispamcruftisement issues from long-term POV-pusher. Guy (Help!) 00:26, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

• Keep As someone who has authored a book on fringe groups (High Weirdness By Mail, Simon & Schuster, 1987) and who regularly deals with countercultural events of various kinds, I consider Jeff Rosenbaum to be quite notable not just within the pagan scene, which isn't all that big to begin with, but within the counterculture in general. While he does not have great author credentials he has impeccable "mover and shaker" credentials, in that he (and ACE) have been bringing togeher some of the most interesting weirdoes in the world for 25 years. Speaking strictly from a personal point of view, without Jeff Rosenbaum's help, diplomacy, and hard work, as exemplified in the ACE events, I would probably not have met half the creative individuals with whom I have subsequently worked. As a behind the scenes guy he is in fact more notable than many of the front-stage acts he has brought together. RevStang (talk) 00:42, 30 December 2007 (UTC) — Revstang (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

• Note: Per this edit summary: [1], Revstang (talk · contribs) is "involved in Starwood and Winterstar organization, a member of ACE". Therefore, Revstang has a Conflict of Interest on this article and this AfD. Per Wikipedia:COI#How to avoid COI edits: "if you have a conflict of interest avoid, or exercise great caution when: Participating in deletion discussions about articles related to your organization or its competitors." I'm sorry Stang, as I know Jeff is your friend, but this policy is important. - Kathryn NicDhàna ♫♦♫ 01:18, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

(Moved from talk page by Rosencomet (talk) 18:39, 31 December 2007 (UTC))

• KEEP: In terms of the neopagan community, Mr. Rosenbaum is a promoter on the level of Bill Graham. My friends have been attending the events he promoted for over 20 years. His work has been notable in shaping the consciousness of at least 2 generations of neopagans. Oskar Matz. (talk) 21:57, 30 December 2007 (UTC) — Oskar Matz. (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

• Delete per nom. Will ^(talk) 18:38, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

• Delete. The reliable sources that are specifically about Jeff Rosenbaum don't look to be enough to justify an article. The best reference in the list is, in my view, the 2005 Nation article by Paul Krassner, but it has only three sentences about Rosenbaum. (Krassner is not exactly a neutral observer, since he performed at the Starwood Festival). There are also some mentions of Rosenbaum in alternative weekly papers, and there is a page or so about him in the Modern Pagans book. Though COI is not by itself a reason for deletion, it is fair to mention the issue in AfD debates. Wikipedia editors are on the alert for self-promotional editing and we see a good deal of that in the history of this article. EdJohnston (talk) 19:12, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

Minor clarification. The Modern Pagans piece is not about Rosenbaum. It is a one-page, with photos, brief interview with Rosenbaum, ansering a few questions about Starwood. The only thing we could use it to source about Rosenbaum is that he runs Starwood. - Kathryn NicDhàna ♫♦♫ 22:05, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

• Comment Please see talk page. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jeff Rosenbaum (talk • contribs) 19:47, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

note - Per this diff User:Rosencomet and User:Jeff Rosenbaum are the same person. Both accounts have edited this AfD. - Kathryn NicDhàna ♫♦♫ 05:40, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

Comment. Not True. User:Jeff Rosenbaum account has commented only on the TALK page, NOT edited this AfD, and neither has voted here nor will.Rosencomet (talk) 00:32, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

??????? I've heard that (if it exists) Multiple Personality Disorder is a terrible thing. Merkinsmum 00:35, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.