Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Jawa Pesisir Lor
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- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was delete. — Nearly Headless Nick {C} 14:06, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Jawa Pesisir Lor
Jawa Pesisir Lor is not an ethnic group within Indonesia recognized by anyone except a bunch of Christian mission websites. Despite the claim by these sites that there are 18.6 million people in the ethnic group, there are no academic references at all mentioning this group and even no Indonesian websites. They are not mentioned at Ethnologue: [1]. It's essentially a hoax. Caniago 06:50, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
- Delete as per nomination. (Caniago 06:50, 9 February 2007 (UTC))
- Comment: map-bms:Dialek Banten Lor mentions "Pesisir Lor". I don't know. I'm neutral on this. — coelacan talk — 07:43, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
- I've asked for input at Wikipedia:Indonesia-related topics notice board. — coelacan talk — 07:48, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
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- pesisir lor means north coast, so I'm sure you'll find many references. It doesn't necessarily mean that a Jawa Pesisir Lor ethnic group exists and has been recognized by academics. (Caniago 07:51, 9 February 2007 (UTC))
- No problem. We've already been discussing at the Indonesia wikiproject, so there will be some other people adding their comments soon. (Caniago 08:00, 9 February 2007 (UTC))
- Delete as there is no other reliable sources except only from one church missionary, the Joshua Project website. I am not against the website, but searching with Google only gives this website, several blogs and other personal websites refering to the Project. I am afraid that the term was defined only from the Project, but not widely accepted by the academic world. I have tried JSTOR search, Scirus and Cultural Survival.org, I got no results. To compare with (Michael has pointed me on my talk page), here's the Javanese tree on Ethnologue and here's the tree from the Joshua Project. Based on this reason, the article fails WP:NN. — Indon (reply) — 08:43, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
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- Comment I have personally met with someone while I was living in Java 95/96 who was either with the project or was thinking on exactly the same line. I believe the project needs an article ( I havent checked) because of the spread and many of the astonishing assumptions made by the project - but this particular article is a construct that has been made by the project needs to be incorporated into the project article - or an article about the projects assumptions about ethnic groupings in the indonesian region. I am impressed by the time and labour taken by editors above - but would only encourage deletion if I knew there was either an article about the Project - or at least the intention there - as this issues arising from the assumptions of the project need to be addressed somewhere or somehow in wikipedia SatuSuro 09:26, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
- The Ethnologue entry for Javanese (http://www.ethnologue.com/show_language.asp?code=jav) lists a number of dialects, including one they call Pasisir. If there are academicly defined ethnic subgroups of Javanese, I would suggest that a subsection of the Javanese article would be the first place to add content, and then maybe a single article describing all subgroups in further detail if there is enough content to fill it. I think an article on the Joshua Project could be notable enough, though I'm not sure that going into the level of explaining each of their definitions is worth the effort. (Caniago 09:44, 9 February 2007 (UTC))
- A language dialect does not define an ethnic subgroup. I agree, that if it is only a dialect, then it is appropriate as one section in the Javanese language, as Javanese language observes different hierarchy (from halus (soft) to kasar (hard)). — Indon (reply) — 09:53, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
- Agree about dialects vs ethnic subgroups, just using it as a hypothetical example. (Caniago 10:04, 9 February 2007 (UTC))
- A language dialect does not define an ethnic subgroup. I agree, that if it is only a dialect, then it is appropriate as one section in the Javanese language, as Javanese language observes different hierarchy (from halus (soft) to kasar (hard)). — Indon (reply) — 09:53, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
- The Ethnologue entry for Javanese (http://www.ethnologue.com/show_language.asp?code=jav) lists a number of dialects, including one they call Pasisir. If there are academicly defined ethnic subgroups of Javanese, I would suggest that a subsection of the Javanese article would be the first place to add content, and then maybe a single article describing all subgroups in further detail if there is enough content to fill it. I think an article on the Joshua Project could be notable enough, though I'm not sure that going into the level of explaining each of their definitions is worth the effort. (Caniago 09:44, 9 February 2007 (UTC))
- Comment I have personally met with someone while I was living in Java 95/96 who was either with the project or was thinking on exactly the same line. I believe the project needs an article ( I havent checked) because of the spread and many of the astonishing assumptions made by the project - but this particular article is a construct that has been made by the project needs to be incorporated into the project article - or an article about the projects assumptions about ethnic groupings in the indonesian region. I am impressed by the time and labour taken by editors above - but would only encourage deletion if I knew there was either an article about the Project - or at least the intention there - as this issues arising from the assumptions of the project need to be addressed somewhere or somehow in wikipedia SatuSuro 09:26, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
- Comment - this is an Afd vote - parts of the conversation above are more suited at the Indonesia Project talk page! Pasisir is not necessarily accepted as a dialect or ethnic group - regardless of ethnologue or joshua project I thought -thats why we are voting...SatuSuro 12:18, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
- Comment: Most of the comments here are correct. THis is a region not an ethnic group. Lor means north and pasisir is 'coast' in Javanese. This is a region NOT an ethnic group, and although there are indeed differences between the people of the central javanese interior and the north coast, they are ALL Javanese. This article should be re-written or deleted. I'd suggest re-write. Merbabu 09:43, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of Indonesia-related deletions. -- ⇒ bsnowball 10:01, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
