Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Jarlaxle

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus to delete. W.marsh 15:48, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Jarlaxle

Jarlaxle (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) – (View log)

Non-notable fictional character. This unreferenced article is written completely in-universe, and I don't believe secondary sources are available for this character -- demonstrating its failure to meet WP:N. Listing at AfD after {{prod}} was removed with the comment "remove prod" and no other discussion or changes to article. Mikeblas 15:12, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

• Delete and comment Not that it makes it notable, but didn't we have a vandal that went by this name? JuJube 19:13, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
  • Yes. Not so much a vandal, but a disruptive editor for sure. His username was a portmanteau of Jarlaxle and Artemis Entreri. Powers ^T 00:39, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
• Delete as per WP:NOR, among other things. Stifle (talk) 21:11, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
• Note: This debate has been included in the list of Fictional characters-related deletions. —Quasirandom 00:42, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
• Keep notable character within the Forgotten Realms series and novels. BOZ 22:10, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

Additional: Major Forgotten Realms character, is a significant character in the novels Homeland, Exile, Sojourn, The Legacy, Starless Night, and Siege of Darkness, by R. A. Salvatore.

• Keep: as mentioned above, Jarlaxle is a major Forgotten Realms character and features not only in Homeland, Exile, Sojourn, The Legacy, Starless Night, and Siege of Darkness,, but also in Servant of the Shard, Promise of the Witch King and Road of the Patriarch, alongside the human assassin Artemis Entreri. You can also find many references to him in TSR/Wizards of the Coast Forgotten Realms sourcebooks. He is one of the most important drow characters in the FR setting.

Sources do need to be added, however - --Geck0 17:47, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

Additional: Jarlaxle is also mentioned in Elaine Cunningham's Daughter of the Drow and additionally, he also appears in the TSR Villain's Lorebook (TSR 9552, July 1998) on page 37, for AD&D 2nd Edition rules and I believe also in 3.0 and 3.5 Edition WotC sourcebooks also. --Geck0 16:14, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

Comment. These are both from WoTC or TSR, and therefore primary sources. -- Mikeblas 16:43, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

Comment. He also appears in the PC game Baldur's Gate 2, by Black Isle Studios, as an NPC. This is not a WoTC or TSR source and neither is it a Primary source. He also appears in the Devil's Due Publishing Comics. Surely in this case, primary sources are more important than secondary ones? What about other similar articles, like the one on Artemis Entreri? I notice that also the Bregan D'aerthe page is also under the knife. --Geck0 18:54, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

Information beyond plot and game guide material is required to justify a stand alone article. Jay32183 20:47, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

Comment: I understand the dilemma here, but this also means the articles on the Do'Urden and Baenre families, as well pretty well all Forgotten Realms (and Dragonlance, et al.) articles should be deleted, because secondary sources are hard to obtain. Is this the stance Wikipedia wishes to take? --Geck0 21:18, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

Yes it is, at least according to WP:PLOT and WP:GAMEGUIDE. WP:N requires that topics have significant coverage in multiple reliable secondary sources independent of the topic to get articles. Jay32183 21:23, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

• Keep as per BOZ. Lack of sources is reason for improvement, not deletion. Edward321 06:31, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

Comment. Of course a lack of sources is a reason to delete. See Wikipedia:Verifiability, which says so. -- Mikeblas 06:35, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

Comment No, it doesn't. "If no reliable, third-party sources can be found for an article topic, Wikipedia should not have an article on it." (WP:PROVEIT) This does NOT mean a poorly written and sourced article is reason to delete. That an article needs improvement is not grounds for deletion. --Anon 121.209.160.15 03:40, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

Let's not confuse the issue. I don't think there's anything in this article that's in dispute, or unverifiable. If there's an issue, it's with the character's notability, not the verifiability of the information presented. Powers ^T 21:06, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

Comment: Yes, I agree with the first issue here, but I do feel he is a notable character, but due to a lack of secondary and tertiary sources on almost all Forgotten Realms (and other WotC game settings) Wiki articles, it is nigh on impossible to prove this. As I said in another comment, if verifiability is the issue here, then virtually all TSR- and WotC-related articles should be deleted. The only ones left would be on Drizzt Do'Urden and perhaps Liriel Baenre, which is unfair, in my opinion. --Geck0 21:18, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

• Delete No secondary sources to establish notability or provide real world context. Jay32183 00:48, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
• Keep As per WP:PROVEIT, article is subject to deletion where no verifiable sources can be found. This is not the case here. Nowhere in WP:V does it say that an article should be deleted because it is not up to Wikipedia standards in terms of proper sourcing and citation. --Anon 121.209.160.15 03:40, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment. PROVEIT says "if no reliable, third-party sources can be found for an article topic, Wikipedia should not have an article on it." This article has no third-party sources. -- Mikeblas 09:17, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
• Delete as this article fails WP:NOT#PLOT by a mile with its heavily in universe perspective. Worse still, there are no footnotes to verify the primary sources have been cited, and the there are no reliable sources to evidence notability outside of the game from which this stock character was created for. This article looks like someone spent a long time working on it, but its shallow disregard for WP guidelines suggests it is a copy and paste from a fansite. --Gavin Collins 14:02, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

Comment: The footnotes can be added, if someone can find the time to do so. I don't have all the source books to hand, but I shall try and footnote as much as possible, with the sources I do obtain. I also do not believe the article to be a cut and paste job entirely (some of it could be). The character is well established in not only novels by R.A. Salvatore, but in the lore of Forgotten Realms (in their source books, written by many different authors). All that needs to be done is a re-write, with footnotes. This is not a delete job. It needs editing, that is all. Is anyone willing to add further sources, linking them to footnotes, as well as changing the in-universe perspective? --Geck0 16:20, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

• Keep Notable character that plays a fairly major part in most of the series. The lack of verifiable sources shouldn't be a major consideration as this is a fictional character in a larger series - many characters don't have sources. In addition, the in-universe perspective could be fixed with a little effort. --220.52.64.59 14:48, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
  • Note. A lack of verifiable third-party sources means the subject of the article is not notable, per WP:N: "A topic is presumed to be notable if it has received significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject." -- Mikeblas 18:04, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
• Keep Per Edward321. Rray 16:10, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
• Keep - add additional sources to improve the article, cite them in text. Wikipedia is not on the deletionists timetable. Web Warlock 16:26, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
• Keep and merge to Bregan D'aerthe. I don't see that we need an article for the leader/founder of the group, but for the group itself which makes strong claims to notability within the setting (outside, not so much... room for improvement, I'd say). -Harmil 18:52, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

Comment: Except Jarlaxle is no longer the leader of Bregan D'aerthe and is currently adventuring with the rogue assassin Artemis Entreri. Bregan D'aerthe is currently being lead by the drow psionicist Kimmuriel Oblodra. Jarlaxle did form Bregan D'aerthe though. Since his departure, we don't hear as much from Bregan D'aerthe as before, but that doesn't mean they're not a notable band, but due to the nature of Forgotten Realms novels and realmslore, we may not know of their current actions, or how powerful they are. The Zhentarim are far more important, in my opinion. I would say merge his article with that of the Baenre family, but his attachment to that drow family is a spoiler, so I would advise against that as well. Geck0 20:33, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

• Keep major character in one series as well as minor character in several others.--Neverpitch 01:28, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.