Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Japanese fascism

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result of the debate was no consensus - 15 votes to delete; 14 votes to keep (of which two are "weak", and not counting the anon at the end for which the vote in this vfd was his 5th edit). Article still requires extensive cleanup, possible renaming. -- BD2412 ^talk June 28, 2005 19:27 (UTC)

Contents 1 Japanese fascism 2 General comment over Japanese fascism 3 Some direct historical traditions comparing between Axis Members 3.1 Japanese local Nationalists thinking 3.2 Japanese local Nationalists thinking in actual days 3.3 Some General Sources 3.4 VOTES

[edit] Japanese fascism

Does this article say anything coherent at all? It appears to equate historic Japanese nationalism/authoritarianism with fascism in an extremely idiosyncratic way, and... er, that's about it, apart from going on and on at great length in a rather peculiar writing style. This should be deleted unless cleaned up to be more meaningful (for example, there probably is something to be said about the influence of Western fascist movements on Japan, but this article isn't it). -- The Anome 13:21, Jun 16, 2005 (UTC)

• The topic is covered in some depth in the Japanese nationalism article. This article doesn't quite mesh with the nationalism article, and the title and article appears rather POV. Perhaps it would make more sense to call it "Japan and fascism", then clean up as appropriate. So I vote to rename to Japan and facism, then recommend a thorough cleanup. :) — RJH 15:38, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Comment

• i stay totally accord,and preciselly if this original idea,but when see certain original elements,mixed with outside political apports and visualized certain ideologycal division between Japanese nationlism ideology from shogunate-meiji period to Showa period-august 1945,decided to changed at present name,but i stay accord to returm of your exelent idea.for certain i this if one humble apport to japanese ideologycal and political analisis in these historical period for your sources,one thing why very little having to analize in profoundity and sugest why this served how point of cominzed to one future analisis for any expert or knowed in materia.

other sugestion can to how theirs sayed,merged these article with present name or this sugest name inside Japanese Nationalism Article, i seeing the political complement between political analisis or can to transformed in one second part why analized in depth the materia.

[edit] General comment over Japanese fascism

i added respect at european fascist apports,why Japanese thinker Kita Ikki and others why traveled for europe,or readed some european political books receiving these ideologycal apport and theirs transformed this in new japanese political rigth-wing thinking and remembered why during last 30s,and 40s decades,japan receiving the visit of Members of European fascist parties,represent for example,Eugen Ott German nazi ambassador,some Nazi party or SS units members and exist one reduced German and Italian Colony in Tokio,Karafuto and other parts in Japanese empire.

Theirs if supposed,leaving examples of Mein Kampf and other European fascist ideology bibliographical sources,why Japanese thinkers and philosphers readed at continuing,for added these apports at local radical nationalists ideololy.these ideologycal interchange inclusive if continuing at lasts stages of conflict,when way German subs arriving to Japan,along german scientists and experts somes Nazi German politics and Military forces or SS members(case how German sub why realizing the travel to germany at Japan with one SS political member along Japanese Navy passengers,in special travel to transport Uranium 234 for nuclear artifact) or exist some flying plans of Luftwaffe or Italian Regia Aeronautica)(special fligth from Europe,over Russia and Siberia Mainland to Manchukuo for Japanese Navy or special figth of Heinkel He 277 V-1 from Salzburg to East Asia or fligth plan of Junkers Ju 290A with special logn range modifications from France to Manchukuo,how others examples) making ultra-long range fligths from Europe to Manchukuo or Japan during last months of European front.or before at conflict when Soviet Russia are certain member of Axis,whe Germany and Japan use with Russian autorization,the Transiberian railway for commercial envoys of prime materials.

In Japan Germany and Italy mantain inside diplomatic services,ones cultural departments,for mantain cultural contact with your own citizens and cultural interchange with Japanese natives.japan mantain official and ideologycal contact with Axis alliance for media of your Ambassador in Europe,General Hiroshi Oshima,why mantained in your post at final of european war.reiterrally if evident why during these political or ideolgycal interchanges,if impossibly why Japanese,well knowed over liked to learned about foreing knowledge,no take any political apports products of these interchange.

Respect at some East Asian connections with Japanese nationalism and nazism,exist evidence about Wang-Chingwei s meetings with german Leader or local Hindu leaders in British administration why stay in secret contacts with german and Japanese agents before and wartimes during Pacific War or the White Russian political use of Fascism ideology and the Swastika in Manchukuo.these ideologycal interchange apport other asian rigth-wing elements to japanese nationalists sources during conflitc times.

[edit] Some direct historical traditions comparing between Axis Members

If possibly seeing some direct historical precedents why also integrated from your local traditions the Axis alliance members.

when observed why Japanese take your traditions of Samurai warriors,Bushi-do Code or administra tive sistem of Shogunate,in relative parallel Fascist Italy remember your ancient ideals of Roman Empire or Cavaliers traditions or in one most depth case,Nazi Germany also used the ideals of First Reich and your King Othon I,the Teutonic Cavalier Order, the "Fredericus Rex" legends the Second Reich Empire military traditions for mixed this with your NS ideology.or inclusive when if observed the comparing when Germany and Italy if sign the alliance are how the "Sacred Germanic-romanic Empire". but tha mosts knowed example of these traditions in German case are the "Prussian Military Spirit" provided from German Province of East Prussia.

[edit] Japanese local Nationalists thinking

joining at previous elements mentioned,if see the local radical elements from ancient times,with Samurai military caste,Bushido code or Shogunate administration.these elements,more later mixed with recent contemporary japanese nationalist philosophy and thnking during Meiji Period(this if i denomined at these political period of japanese nationalism how "Japanese fascism").when cominzed the travels of Japanese thinkers and philosophers to America or Europe and others parts of the world(inclusive africa,for example),theirs seeing the local thinkings and take the interestings ideologycal elements and mixed with own thnking,along the first interchange with European rigth-wing thinking and Philosophy.more later when raising the Axis ideology in Europe,these interchange continuing,and these ideologysts receiving new elements,and this process if mantained during the rests of WW2 period until final.(these last period from last Meiji days to raising Showa period until august 1945,i named how political term of "Showa ideology or Showa nationalism")

[edit] Japanese local Nationalists thinking in actual days

In present days if possibly why exists some idelogycal interchange but in reduced form for part of local rigth-wing radicals and nationalists with American European,Asian or other extreme rigth followers around the world.Inclusive actually times,exists somes local rigth-wing nationalist japanese groups how NSJAP(National Socialist Japanese Party) why defend these lazes and stay connect with local nationalist secret societies and theirs realizing interchange with others NS followers in Europe,America or Asia in present days.theirs remembered the figure of General Hiroshi Oshima how one great leader,along General Hideki Tojo or Emperor Hiro-Hito. these and other groups remember the Axis Powers Alliance too when analized the paper represent for Japanese Empire joining Nazi Germany and Fascist Italy in some think thank groups,local conferences and some international meetings in other countries in European area for example,and theirs defend the local values and thinking over foreing elements in Japan.

[edit] Some General Sources

more thanks at very little friends and some enemies,for your ,amable and heavy destructive comments.

Well,i am present:

the name of your uhknowed server are Wellington Perez Ishikawajima,i am from of Peru.if evident why i are non native english,and no poses knowledge of motherland language,Japanese,my motherlanguage if bow my latinamerican born,if Spanish.i only poses reading knowledge in english and yours well knowed limits in emglish grammar and writing style.

my nickname are Wladk for Wladimir Kamisky,i readed over German-Russian war and liked the history of Pro-axis russian military leader Bronislav Kaminsky. i am stay more prided of history of my great country and in my limits mantain contact with other japanese citizens why knowed about history in Japan and outside.

my farests ancestors are japanese and poses family in central america,Mexico ane Europe.i for working reasons staying preciselly in central america,in ones parents.

i sta more disgusts with theirs for your actions why in first thinked in good faith and comprension but in last days appareing agressive attacks,no one adequate recomendation or similar.

for this i knowed much of japanese history and poses more information at respect.preciselly i am debt at my nearests of Jap web sources,treated to publish some interesting info,but uhknowed why stay violating certain rigth laws.

i am are one interests in jap history in much detail overall the specific topic previously mentioned. i am knowed one panamenian why mentioned at me over your farests japanese ancestors,secret agents,jap plans against panama canal,and present some bibliography.

i stay more disillucioned with yours,if totally certain why poses more troubles in my grammar or no poses writing habilities,but i writing in good faith ,lamentably,yours stay in these strict media with correct inflexible rules,and i no poses well diction for participed in this.if more lamentably why having occured this.

in present days stay in these country,but for working reasons i traveled to Europe in route to Madagascar or South Africa.i am decided no return at your media i stay more desappointed and disgust with theirs!

Sirs,for my part no poses troubles,i am no agreed much idea of writing in your media other time,if more terrible for me!

thanks at yours for amable attention

NOTE: (about editing in native language). There seems to be somewhat related material at ja:天皇機関説. If your native language is Japanese, perhaps you could use that as a starting point for expansion or a place to branch and start a new article. --Tabor 18:46, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)

[edit] VOTES

• Weak keep but cleanup. As it stands now, it strikes me that it might be categorized as a personal essay or original research: hard to say, given its difficult grammar and syntax. The label Japanese fascism strikes me as justifiable, if only because Japan was one of the Axis Powers. A valid article could be written relating Japanese willingness to join the Axis, relating this to traditional Japanese chauvinism, mistrust of foreigners, and military expansionism, and the rise of a military authoritarian government in Japan. The content now here is not totally useless for the construction of that better article. Smerdis of Tlön 14:03, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)

• DELETE as it does look like original research. The fact that Japan was part of the Axis Powers alliance has nothing to do with fascism. Japan was not fascist because it was a member, just as Finland was not facist even though it was a member. Spain was facist and it was *not* a member. 132.205.95.65 16:08, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)

• Delete. Original research, text dump. jglc | t | c 16:09, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)

• Strong keep and strong cleanup; the article may need to be replaced. Suggest the editor contribute to wikipedia in his/her native language and then request translation. As it stands, text is nearly unusable. Defending distinctions between abstractions like fascism, nationalism, and totalitarainism requires a solid grasp of the language. However, Japanese fascism is a topic that has been widely discussed, most notably perhaps by Japanese historian Masao Murayama in Thought and Behavior in Modern Japanese Politics (Oxford, 1963). It does not take much searching to find quite a bit of literature on the subject. I'll start by adding references to the article. --Tabor 17:18, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)

• Keep but strong cleanup; The article's discussion of the Ziabatsu and such has importance, but it is so poorly written and has a strong POV that it needs some serious work. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Barneygumble (talk • contribs) 18:14, 16 Jun 2005
• Keep and cleanup, in agreement with Tabor. Barno 20:55, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)
• Keep and cleanup. I've been working on some. I really wish people would just ask on the talk pages or add a cleanup tag instead of bringing here. Check out VfD for the last week an a half for all of the discussions on these. Wikibofh 22:35, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)

• Delete. Original research. Baru 23:15, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)
• Delete. Utter crap. Wikipedia isn't a personal website. --Ypacaraí 23:43, 2005 Jun 16 (UTC)
• Keep and send to cleanup. Valid topic, per Tabor. Jitse Niesen 00:09, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)
  • Moving to abstain, given that the author requested deletion. Besides, I am realizing that I would probably not be so eager to keep it if it were about a subject which I understand better. -- Jitse Niesen 11:36, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)
• Delete. The fact whether Japanese social system of 1930-1945 was "fascism" or not is still a matter of controversy.Ken304 01:04, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)
• Delete I agree with Ypacaraí. --Nanshu 01:18, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)
• keep but strong cleanup Rrwuires section on differences between Japan and the European Axis; explicit checklist for fascist tendencies; notes on Jpamnese belief in Victory through Willposer. Septentrionalis 02:28, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)
• DeleteOriginal research.--Mochi 03:58, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)
• Delete as per Mochi--nixie 04:00, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)
• Keep and Cleanup per Tabor Xoloz 04:35, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)
• Delete Hermeneus 05:35, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)
• Keep and cleanup. Widely discussed historical topic. JamesBurns 06:03, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)
• Keep and Cleanup. It must be arranged with related articls about duplications and relations. Johncapistrano 07:15, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)
• Delete unless transformed completely into something more meaningful. -- The Anome 09:30, Jun 17, 2005 (UTC)
• Delete Did anyone check the history of the page? Most of the page was written by just a single person "200.46.215.196"="196.215.46.200.dialup.psinetpa.net, panama" / "200.46.215.141" / "200.46.215.170" /... so on. How can I trust such a page created/written by a "no-login guy"? Poo-T 10:30, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)
• DELETE Nonsense.Commonsenses 10:54, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)
• Comment. I would like to urge everybody to take a look at User:Charles Matthews/Imperial Japan and User:Wikibofh/Japanese Articles for some analysis on similar articles by the same author. -- Jitse Niesen 12:08, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)
  • And I would urge those users, and you, to make the effort to wikify whatever content you can extract from the articles and put it where it belongs and stop wasting everyone else's time with this stupid bullshit. Why this consensus has emerged that this drivel is deserving of special treatment is beyond me. Take whatever content is salvagable, put it in the numerous existing articles about Japanese history and stop talking about it, voting about it, and discussing it. Just do it and quit whining and defending rambling, misspelled article titles for POV essays. Ben-w 17:40, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC).

• Comment: This is a valid criticism, which I addressed when you raised it on my talk page. Realizing that could be transitory I have added it to my Japanese Articles page. I will let my edit history and contributions to the wikipedia stand on their own. Wikibofh 23:52, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)

• Delete. I can't continue to assume good faith about these articles. The defenders have been told often enough to merge whatever usable content they can find into the EXISTING ARTICLES ABOUT JAPANESE HISTORY but they point-blank refuse to do it. Ben-w 17:36, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)

• Comment: This is an unfair characterization. and you know it. Let me spell it out. I agree that some of these should be integrated into other articles.. However I think just putting these sections into other articles will result in them being deleted and the information will be gone. I think the articles need to be cleaned up as they stand (or under different titles) and then they should be merged. Just to be clear, if I refuse to do something on Wikipedia I will say something subtle like: "I refuse to do that". There will be no room for mis-interpretation. If you disagree with how I've handled myself, take it to an RfA or RfC. Don't use VfD. Wikibofh 23:52, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)
• Comment. Yes, using VfD actually prevents sensible merges. Talk pages are good for such discussions. And keep for the moment. Charles Matthews 19:14, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)

• delete - the article seems not usable at all. I agree that Japanese facism is a facinating topic, but whether this one is patent nonsense or not is a different matter. -- Taku 06:13, Jun 18, 2005 (UTC)
• Keep and cleanup. But I observe that those who voted for "delete" are mainly Japanese users. It is natural for Japanese to oppose to people who talk bad, or discuss about, about their own race, and this applies to all other races to those people who talk bad about, or discuss about their own race. Mr Tan 12:50, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)
• Keep, Clean up and rename to Japan and Fascism as per top post (by RJH). Celestianpower 14:17, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)
• keep, cleanup, rename etc. Kappa 21:04, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)
• Comment. Enough is enough. The author of this article has been posting his original research papers on various rather minor topics of modern Japan. The majority of them ought to have been written into existing articles in the first place and do not merit independent namespaces. Yet he keeps making these little articles to show his research papers on Wikipedia possibly because he cannot incorporate his broken English texts into the tightly written existing articles. Every time his articles are put on VfD they will be greeted by "Keep, cleanup, merge" support votes. The fact of the matter is that although some native English-speaking members might clean up the English a little, few would bother to merge them into relevant articles.Hermeneus (talk) 03:43, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)
  • Why do you say that? I have made many hundreds - probably well over 1000 - edits, directly working on these contributions. Including very many merges, for example into Japanese nationalism. You are just hypothesising. Charles Matthews
• Delete - Wikipedia expresses political slant and is sure that it is not what entraps a political opponent. --Maizuru 08:11, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)
• Comment-I am are the some author of these texts.my name if Wellington Perez Ishikawajima,i proceded from Peru and stay in short times in central america area.i am poses japanese ancestors and knowed over contemporary political and military history and stay more prided of this history suceses. i am no poses oposers interests only present some historic suceses and some relates knowed for me thanks at my contact with japanese in country and some japanese sources or ancient books.i lamented why others japanese sensebad with this. i how your knowed poses short knowledge grammar and wirting english knowledge,no knowed well japanese and some poses depth know over spanish. reiterrally i am stay prided of own contemporary history and i leaved to foreing in next days...i am commisioned at one central american friend in use of myidentification in site for continuig of sending info,for why i am stay outside ofarea in nexts times.but always existing some persons why poses some troubles with history facts,i am no gained nothing in related lies or falsities,this if some historical facts,more less relationed with country of poses more prided in your history or i no poses any great imagination to composes some certain cyphers,dates or historical numbers or similar! reiterally if you liked Deleted or Preserved ,if decision of yours,i am only limited in present these sucesses.User(Wladk)
• Weak keep - I think the article itself needs to be changed, but the concept itself is alright. Thus if it can be re-written I am in favour of keeping. Will => talk 20:06, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)
• Keep and cleanup - There should be a way of organizing this historical article. Merging it with other articles seems unsensible, as similiar articles exist for other countries as well as for other ideologies concerning Japan. 84.137.21.236 08:54, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.