Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/James Hyman

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result of the nomination was no consensus. Hard to call, but I count 7 delete and 6 keep, discounting votes from anons/new accounts. I'm going to say that copyvio is not an issue; this edit [1] constitutes a total rewrite, and I'm going to delete the history that goes before that. Mangojuice^talk 16:36, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] James Hyman

A quite astonishing vanity article. As per the article creation notice, which reads "Wikipedia is not an advertising service. Promotional articles about yourself, your friends, your company or products; or articles created as part of a marketing or promotional campaign, may be deleted in accordance with our deletion policies." -- The Anome 16:29, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

• Delete Narcissus would be put to shame. Also seems to fail WP:BIO. --Mr. Lefty _{Talk to me!} 16:33, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
• Delete Agreeing with Mr. Lefty. Treebark 16:36, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
• Keep The article may suck, but the person is notable [2] Note he was "responsible for producing, directing and editing over 250 pop videos." It rates a cleanup tag and thorough scrubbing. I may hold my nose and start on it after lunch. Rklawton 16:39, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

Comment a IMDB entry is NOT proof of notability. The "250 pop videos" claim needs to be sourced and verified. If he mainly acted as a MTV editor for (as he says) "clips" than he is NOT notable like a director would be. Bwithh 16:57, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

I guess it was too hard to see that through all the vanity. :) --Mr. Lefty _{Talk to me!} 16:41, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

• Keep DO NOT DELETE Don't understand your requests to delete here. This guy is a DJ, presenter, broadcaster etc. as explained in the text, he is cross referenced to another Wiki entry, Aphex Twin 'Come To Daddy'). There are other similar broadcasters not deleted e.g. Karl Pilkington. Disagree too that it fails the WP:BIO - :

"The following types of people may merit their own Wikipedia articles, as there is likely to be a good deal of verifiable information available about them and a good deal of public interest in them.

The person made a widely recognized contribution that is part of the enduring historical record in their specific field.

Notability can be determined by:

Multiple features in popular culture publications such as Vogue, GQ, Elle, FHM or national newspapers

A large fan base, fan listing or "cult" following

An independent biography

Name recognition —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.27.228.4 (talk • contribs)

Let's work on the assumption that you are not James Hyman. Then we should delete this article as a copyright violation, as it is a more-or-less verbatim copy from his home page. Alternatively, if you are, perhaps you should read the banner above the article creation box, which reads:

"Wikipedia is not an advertising service. Promotional articles about yourself, your friends, your company or products; or articles created as part of a marketing or promotional campaign, may be deleted in accordance with our deletion policies."

Which of these two policies would you like us to apply? -- The Anome 16:49, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

Oh, and, User:82.27.228.4, I note that you created the link from Come to Daddy that you use to justify the notability of this article. -- The Anome 16:55, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

• Delete as per nom, unless "250 pop videos" claim can be verified from a reliable source - and if he wasn't simply a MTV clip editor for most of these videos. This man is sooooooooooooooooooooooooo vain and self-promoting, so extra caution in sourcing required. Bwithh 16:57, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

Regarding the "over 250 pop videos": I can't find them on his IMDB entry. [3] Can you provide any evidence for this? -- The Anome 16:59, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

• This is Kate, a fan of James Hyman's. I've e-mailed him and he has no problem with this Wiki page. I would re-iterate that what James Hyman has achieved is valid to list just like other presenters on here who similarly para-phrase their bios e.g. Karl Pilkington, another Xfm DJ like James. Would you like me to re-write James's entry just simplifying it instead of copying his home-page which he has no objection to? Thanks. Also, if you want a link to the videos that he produced/edited/directed, it's: http://www.jameshyman.com/blog/archives/Green%20BandanaProjects.xls Thanks —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.27.228.4 (talk • contribs) 13:00, 4 July 2006
• Comment The bulk of the videos/clips on the "Green Bandana Projects" list linked by the User-I-will-be-assuming-for-now-is-a-James-Hyman-fan-named-Kate-and-not-at-all-for-instance-his-personal-assistant-or-indeed-Hyman-himself are listed as remixes/edits for MTV clps or advertising spots. Also, this is not an independently verifiable reliable source Bwithh 17:10, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
• Delete all I can gather is that's he's edited clips of famous people and possibly had brief, tangential interactions with them. Before they were famous. He "has no problems with this Wiki page"? Now there's a shocker. Opabinia regalis 17:09, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

• Keep DO NOT DELETE Hi, this is Kate again, actually, many of those videos were the ACTUAL/ORIGINAL video for the artist in question e.g. Fatboy Slim "Santa Cruz", Prince "Pink Cashmere", Moby "C'Mon On Baby" etc. Check the new Fatboy Slim CD/DVD best of release which has the "Santa Cruz" video on there, directed by James Hyman. I understand you all have to do your jobs round here but I'm only trying to maintain a listing for James + his work!!!! Phew!!! There is this grey area on what's allowed/not allowed/notable. I can give loads of other examples for similar presenters on here which is simply their bio. Thanks. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.27.228.4 (talk • contribs)

Yes... I'm sure you're just trying to do your job too, ahem. Sorry, WP:AGF to myself Bwithh 17:22, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

Kate, are you the Kate mentioned by James Hyman as "team member Kate" in this blog entry, and pictured with him here, by any chance? -- The Anome 17:25, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

I'm sure all James' assistants are his biggest fans too. Bwithh 17:29, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

Um. Maybe we should reconsider all of this. She's hot. Rklawton 17:31, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

Erm. It takes different strokes. Bwithh 17:34, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

Comment I count about 43 or 44 "original pop videos" listed on the unverified non-independent source, the Green Bandana client list. Also the roles are simply listed as "Production/Direction" for the Green Bandana company - it does not specify what role this exactly was (support for production/direction? assistant producer? amorphous executive producer credit?) or if James Hyman himself was directly involved. But again, this is an unverified non-independent source. Bwithh 17:29, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

• Reluctant Keep - He does seem to be notable, in addition to being a self-promoting ass. More on his video work can be found here here. The article needs to be re-worked almost completely though, as right now it stinks of street-teamery and POV Artw 17:30, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

Comment Okay, I'm ready to believe he was director of a number of music videos, but I am not yet convinved that his track record is of sufficient encyclopedic notability Bwithh 17:44, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

• COMMENT + Keep - over 45 ORIGINAL videos were produced by James Hyman as both director & producer, listed here: here for bands such as New Order, Moby, Fatboy Slim, Jean Michel Jarre, Prince, Snow Patrol etc. etc. For further fact-checking google the artist + James Hyman etc.{—Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.27.228.4 (talk • contribs) 4, July 2006
• Weaker of weak keeps - as above, he has some notability, but the article is in dire need of overhaul. Two lines should do it. Budgiekiller 17:32, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

Thank you very much from Kate, an avid listener to his weekly Xfm radio shows not the one in the pictures and admit as the * Reluctant Keep says, I am a bit of a 'street-teamer' I guess but not as simple/strange as Artw. Thank you again.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.27.228.4 (talk • contribs) 4, July 2006

May I humbly draw your attention to James' blog entry of October 2005, where he celebrates "our 2nd anniversary together" with one Kate Unger (see linked page). What a remarkable coincidence that our contributor has the same name as James' friend. - The Anome 17:35, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

Ah...hahahahahahahaha.... very good work, Anome!! Budgiekiller 17:38, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

I love their blog. Here's the profoundly disturbing album cover art for James' Tarantino mashup:[4]. I wonder Quentin would think about this? (though I'm surprised his blog has google ads - that's not very hip. Take notes for the team, Kate, take notes!) Bwithh 17:45, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

• Since I think we can all agree that this article breaches the "no self promotion" principle, can I suggest that we delete it, and see how long it takes before someone who isn't James, his girlfriend, one of his other friends, co-workers, employees, relatives, or other representatives, takes to create it, backed up by independent, verifiable, sources? -- The Anome 17:48, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

Sounds good to me. Even if Kate above isn't the wife of the uh... Hyman team, she just admitted that she's a "street teamer". I think its possible that this guy is worthy of an article but not in this way. More sources needed imho.Bwithh 17:51, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

How bizarre! You don't think that entries for loads of other presenters/DJs/broadcasters etc. aren't written by street-teamers, PR companies, fans etc. etc. Weak reasoning!!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.27.228.4 (talk • contribs) 4, July 2006

This would be the "lots of other people do it" defence, then? -- The Anome 18:02, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

For the most part, actually, the articles aren't written by paid representatives. And if they are, they are likely to be targetted for scrutiny just as your article is being so here. Bwithh 18:03, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

Fair enough, so are you allowing this entry: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Hyman which was not written by me (Kate) but presumably by one of the moderators above? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.27.228.4 (talk • contribs) 4, July 2006

By "created by one of the moderators" are you talking about this edit, with edit comment "Hacked away promotional material with a chainsaw."? -- The Anome 18:21, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

Yes, that's the one, hacked away (!) by Artw. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.27.228.4 (talk • contribs) 4, July 2006

• Delete, a former low-level MTV executive (as mentioned here) and current XFM DJ doesn't seem notable enough to warrant an article. Of all the "Keep" votes listed, only four or five appear to be unique, the rest being made multiple times by the same users, most of whom are apparently personally tied to the subject. This should be straightforward enough. HumbleGod 18:34, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

"Executive" is an interesting word. The article seems to suggest that he virtually ran the place. This blog entry mentions that he held a (nonspecific) "powerful position" at MTV Europe. Can anyone tell me what his job title actually was at MTV? -- The Anome 18:37, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

I looked in up on the news and magazine database Factiva, and his highest title appears to have been Director of Dance Programming for MTV Europe. Bwithh 21:07, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

Er, so should we keep this Xfm DJ entry too? Eddy Temple-Morris —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.27.228.4 (talk • contribs)

Someone has already added an infobox/template asking that very same question. I would assume that page won't last the month. Also, please start signing your comments, all you have to do is add four tildes (~) in a row. HumbleGod 18:57, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

• Comment I'd like to add some citations to the James Hyman entry, how does one do this? Thanks. Hamos —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.27.228.4 (talk • contribs)

You add 'em; one of us will follow along and format them for you. Rklawton 19:20, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

Please do not make up a username when signing comments, the edit history gives you away. You can sign up for a username by following the links in the top-right of each page. Proper information on article editing can be found in the Editing Wikipedia section, particularly under "Formatting" and "Sources." HumbleGod 19:22, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

Note: this page was at this point blanked [5] by User:82.27.228.4, who was given a final warning for doing so. -- The Anome 19:54, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

User has been blocked by an admin. HumbleGod 19:56, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

• Keep and Rewrite focus on stuff that matters, like his music video career. Danny Lilithborne 21:06, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
• His Full CV is here. His MTV executive career seems irrelevant for wikipedia. I'm still unconvinced about his music video career being enough for an article. Bwithh 21:13, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
• Keep Bwithh you may miss the point here, he's not just got a music video career but seems to have a career as a DJ, on Xfm as well as producing soundtracks for feature films, the IMDB link and worked at MTV, there's plenty worse entries out there, chill! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.108.4.138 (talk • contribs)

• Comment - none of which automatically makes him meet WP notability standards, a varied and full life notwithstanding. Yes, there are certainly worse entries out there, and hopefully all of them will make it to this page sometime soon. HumbleGod 23:33, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
• Comment - Incidentally, it's intriguing that yet another user with no WP edit history prior to today has managed to stumble onto the site and just happens to have more information about this particular subject (if not more citations). Funny how coincidences work out. HumbleGod 23:38, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

• Delete nn, fails [[WP:BIO], also WP is not a free webhost for the resume. Tychocat 22:29, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

• Keep and rewrite I listen to XFM a lot and I'd say that out of the current roster (after the actual celeb DJs) James Hyman is second in notability to Lauren Laverne thanks to his TV and film work. The first version comes over as pretty fanboy/girl (and used too much bold) but as the version currently stands it is reasonable entry - it could still do with some work (there is still information on other TV work that could be extracted for example, as should that info about his CD being one of the top 5 albums of 2004, if it can be confirmed) but he is notable and it'd be a pity if the initial tone of the article distracts from this. (Emperor 10:52, 5 July 2006 (UTC))

The first version was taken directly from his own website, and was posted by User:JamesHyman. You say he is second in notability "after the actual celeb DJs"; this presumably implies that you do not consider him a celebrity? -- The Anome 12:30, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the clarification - as I say the tone was wrong but it had plenty of useful information that can be wrangled into making a decent entry. On the "actual celeb DJ" front I should probably expand the XFM entry to look at the distinction I was trying to make. What I am getting at is that XFM also have DJs who aren't "proper DJs" but are usually already famous in another arena (usually comedians as they come over well on the radio). These have included Ricky Gervais, Jimmy Carr and Adam and Joe. Do I consider him a celebrity? I'm not even sure the term has much meaning these days if you can become a celebrity for frottage on Big Brother. I suppose with that in mind they he probably is but that all rather misses the point I was trying to make. I'd better go and update the XFM entry while this is fresh on my mind. (Emperor 13:37, 5 July 2006 (UTC))

• Delete NN, seems to be a real working guy in the entertainment industry, but not everyone who's worked a few films and videos is notable. I have non-notable friends that have edited oscar winning films.--Nick Y. 00:29, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

• Keep

James Hyman is an innovator and educator of the masses. His understanding of music and pop culture is a breath of fresh air. He respects all styles and musical genres. His cult radio show "The Rinse" on XFM showcases groundbreaking new music today. He was responsible for the music sountracks of two British films[Revolver and Kidulthood]for which he won critical acclaim.He is at the forefront of a new generation. --MaitresseMarlene 21:44, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

• Keep

To start, I'm a little bit shocked at the cattiness of the comments above. Secondly, I don't understand where people are coming from by trying to get this entry deleted. Hyman is a fantastic innovator in music. He doesn't play to a 'set list' which is dictated by a huge radio station (read back on your Peel biographies and his early days, please). A Peel of our day if you will, with his own eclectic taste in music. If you think his biography isn't factual, why not ask him for proof rather than pulling punches at him and making sly person remarks, or comments about his 'hot' assistant? Wiki is not meant to be smut.com.

I refer you back to the court case of Wiki vs Encyclopedia Britannica, and specifically:

For its study, Nature chose articles from both sites in a wide range of topics and sent them to what it called "relevant" field experts for peer review. The experts then compared the competing articles - one from each site on a given topic - side by side but were not told which article came from which site. Nature got back 42 usable reviews from its field of experts.

So where is your consultation with the experts here? It seems that the 'keep' people above know their stuff when it comes to the facts. I'll take their word for it because I don’t have the time to trawl the internet to back them up. However, regardless of ‘fact’ or not, I fail to see why anyone would want to delete the entry of someone who clearly breaks the mould on a musical front. I don't want to go back to the days when Heart FM or Capital Gold was all that the mass British public would (or could) listen to, and you guys are not helping the case here. We're in a completely different era of music - one that one that embraces originality and creativity. Don't try to stomp it out. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.3.227.62 (talk • contribs)

Comment: I know it has rather fallen afoul of the non-promotion angle but I'm sure its not the first time a useful entry has arisen from such activity - the main criteria surely has to be whether the topic is notable enough. I am quite suprised this is an issue (I would have voted for notability on what I knew but reading through the early version of the entry I ran across various other things which I wasn't aware of which would have also counted towards his being notable like headf**k and his directing Fatboy Slim's first video) and things here seem to have got bogged down in claim and counter-claim so I did a bit of digging for information based on the criteria listed in the section on Notability in music: "A musician or ensemble (note that this includes a band, singer, rapper, orchestra, hip hop crew, DJ etc) is notable if it meets any one of the following criteria:"

• "Has released two or more albums on a major label or one of the more important indie labels":
  • The Remix and The Remix 2 for Virgin/EMI
  • Covered for Sony BMG
  • 7 mix CDs including the James Bond one Licensed to Thrill that was in The Telegraph's top 5 CDs of 2004 [6]
• "Has been featured in multiple non-trivial published works in reliable and reputable media":
  • There are a lot of scans from papers and magazines in this folder on his site http://jameshyman.com/press/ - there are various reviews of the above releases as well as features http://jameshyman.com/press/tvandradio/
• "Has performed music for a work of media that is notable"
  • They are the films listed in his IMDB entry (the majority of which have their own Wikipedia entries): http://www.imdb.com/name/nm1340473/
• "Has been placed in rotation nationally by any major radio network" - the following still get played on radio stations like KissFM:
  • http://www.discogs.com/release/427287
  • http://www.discogs.com/release/653537

Of course this doesn't include work in other fields (TV for example) but the above should be enough to prove notability within the music field using the criteria as it is currently laid out. (Emperor 23:11, 6 July 2006 (UTC))

• Keep! When searching for info on mr hyman,i find a bunch of people arguing over wether he's notable??????????

this doesnt surprise me as i hadnt heard of him until a few months ago,but this guy is supernova huge.no matter wether you've heard of him he's been the underlying force that was put in charge of curating the rave movement(so to speak).as a twenty something i'm starting to find all the music i love wouldn't be in the mainstream if he'd failed.(think jacque lu cont or The egg from the french car adds)i dont get london radio but i know the statistics & he's heard by nearly200'000 people every week(2-3% of the london!).i think with a fanbase like that you can call him famous.he's all over nightclub flyers/festival line-ups at the moment,so i started researching how he's contributed to alternative music,& can assure you he IS the new john peel.i think he was even the 1st person to ever air gnarls barkley(months before its release).his position in the british underground scene as a dj means he is realy good friends with some of the biggest names in music from before they were famous(just like john peel was).he's pushed many an artist into the limelight by having a massive influence on what other dj's play(just like john peel).And is in the british media on a monthly basis being interviewed or asked for a whats hot list.i think any directorial work he's done doesn't even need to be brought up.just think of how different pop music is nowadays,it's all beats.without him putting so much effort into making beats cool,getting them on air & in adverts, we'd all still be listening to the spice girls & aqua, condemning breakbeat as something only drug using ravers listen to.vinyl2008

• Keep

Don't think there's any doubt that this should be kept. What seems to be the problem is Wikipedia's definition of notable. Brian's lippy

• Keep-with-edits

"street-teamery"? Yes, I get that impression a bit. More extensive an article than I would have expected maybe, but worthy of inclusion. It needs reducing to the core points and more backup for the info about his main works. Can anyone with enough knowledge write an objective version of that? jgbreezer

• Comment: it seems to me that there might well be some "street-teamery" going on in some of the other recent previous comments, as several of the commenters above appear to have only recently discovered Wikipedia, and some of them even appear to have similar writing styles. -- The Anome 22:36, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

• A Modest Proposal Let's keep the article in its edited down form but only if all the street team / personal assistant / wife accounts and IP addresses are permanently banned from wikipedia. Bwithh 00:49, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

An even more modest proposal - Art's chainsawing has fashioned a reasonable starting point from which a decent entry could be created. I'd rather not blanket ban people for being passionate about an entry (even if there is a degree of barging through various "ways things are done" - presumably through ignorance rather than... whatever a more sinister motivation may be). Who knows some may be bitten by the Wikipedia bug and go on to contribute in other areas (and the majority of the others will disappear and never be heard from anyway). Whoever its going to be difficult to fashion the best entry possible if there is too much interference (if well meaning) so how about a gentlemen's (and ladies) agreement from those folks not to interfere or we'll revert the article. It should then be possible to build the entry back up piece by piece focusing on the most notable work (DJing, film work, music videos, TV work, etc. - broken down into sections) with each stage getting a thorough factchecking as we go. Its not the fastest way to build an encyclopedic entry but perhaps being too bold is what has brought us to this point in the first place. Just another idea on ways to move this forward. (Emperor 04:07, 9 July 2006 (UTC))

• Changing vote to userfy. Since this article claims to have been written by either the real, or an impostor of, James Hyman, his girlfriend, and their "street team", this is clearly a user homepage. Move to User:JamesHyman. -- The Anome 00:27, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.