Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Jack Schaap

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus, defaulting to keep. Can't sleep, clown will eat me 16:58, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Jack Schaap

Jack Schaap (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) - (View log)

Yesterday, David.Monniaux (talk • contribs • blocks • protects • deletions • moves • rights) deleted this article (all 167 revisions and all) because the "biography does not point out notability of the subject". This page came to my attention as I saw it was wrongly tagged for speedy deletion CSD G4. I thought it would be best to send this to AfD, where the community can decide. Nishkid64 01:47, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

Delete unless article can assert notability. Navou banter 03:11, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

  • Keep this article Jack Schaap is a leader in the Independant Baptist movement, and although a small movement, it is vocal nonetheless. This article comes up as #2 on google. That is notable NovumTestamentum 03:45, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
  • Weak Keep This is a marginal call. The major claim to notability seems to be as chancellor of Hyles-Anderson College. We use campus papers of major universities to establish notability. Hyles-Anderson College cannot exactly be said to be major. But nonetheless, if it's conceded that it's notable enough to warrant an article (which isn't being contested), then it seems perhaps the campus newspaper could be used to establish notability of the chancellor. A bit of a stretch, but within notability. There doesn't seem to be evidence of notability other than Hyles-Anderson related media, however. --Shirahadasha 04:11, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep - he appears to be the pastor of an extremely large congregation. Also, there's quite a bit of controversy. Gsearch for 'independent.baptist schaap' returns some interesting if not entirely reliable links. -- Bpmullins | Talk 05:56, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete Nothing I can see in the article to make him stand out beyond any other pastor/vicar/priest/whatever. User:NovumTestamentum says that Schaap "is a leader in the Independant Baptist movement"; now if that was leader of rather in we might have something more important. User:Shirahadasha's comment that he is chancellor of a college needs to be balanced against the statement in the article that this is "an unaccredited bible college". User:Bpmullins says he "appears to be the pastor of an extremely large congregation" but there is no evidence for this. Emeraude 15:04, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep I've included several new links that lend notability to the Jack Schaap article, including his and his churches inclusion in a couple of Christian magazines. Last year Schaap and his church enjoyed public visibility in a national church magazine as being among the top 50 churches in the nation. If Wikipedia is going to include film and television *characters* whose sole existence is based on a tv show or movie, then why not a Pastor who is becoming nationally known in mainstream Christian magazines? He's also fairly well-known among certain segments of Baptists, and is a source of controversy among Independent Baptists, and former Independent Baptists who now occupy pulpits in other denominations. Jack Schaap, like it or not, is poised to be a big player nationally speaking. He's already made it into at least two(2) nationally read Christian magazines. As to the comment of "User:Bpmullins says he "appears to be the pastor of an extremely large congregation" but there is no evidence for this. User:Emeraude|Emeraude 15:04, 21 January 2007 (UTC)": They must not have read the two links that I've provided stating that he is the pastor of a very large congregation at the end of the article. I will supply them into the top section as well if this needs to be there also. But Jack Schaap and First Baptist Church of Hammond average well over 20,000 persons in services at their church campus every Sunday. Their auditorium seats at last 7,500; they have around 10,000+ members if memory serves me correctly. As stated before, Schaap is the pastor of one of, if not THE, largest Independent Baptist church in America. As well as a large Independent Baptist Bible College. His church also has two high schools, two elementary schools, etc. Exactly how much "notability" must an individual like this have in order to be considered notable enough for Wikipedia? Most of the characters from Buffy the Vampire Slayer are included in Wikipedia, and their only claim to fame is that of a television show that is no longer making episodes. If television characters can be included, I see no reason to trash this article. I've asserted at least three separate articles from separate magazines and newspapers outside of the college and church which assert some notability to Jack Schaap.IFBScholar 20:14, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete nothing particularly notable except that he is the pastor of a large congregation. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by PaddyM (talk • contribs) 00:15, 22 January 2007 (UTC).
  • Delete. I don't see the references to mainstream Christian magazines that are mentioned by IFBScholar above; all of the links are to the college or to mentions of the subject's books and sermons. As it is, the entire section quoting his books, etc., looks promotional to me, and I don't see anything establishing notability in the article. As always, if it's sourced well by the end of the AfD period, I'd be happy to reconsider. Tony Fox (arf!) 04:32, 22 January 2007 (UTC) 
 15. ^ http://churchrelevance.com/2006/07/11/the-church-reports-50-most-influential-churches-for-2006/
 16. ^ http://www.nwitimes.com/articles/2005/07/04/news/top_news/1b92154eac92f04a86257034000f438a.txt
 17. ^ http://www.nwitimes.com/articles/2005/07/03/opinion/forum/387012d42683d90d8625703000796476.txt
 I've provided these in the article, evidently they had to be restored by NovumTestamentum.IFBScholar 15:03, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep He has some notoriety as an author; some dubious statements in one of his books led to a controversy considered one of the top 2006 news stories for Fundamentalism. See this blog, #7, which while a blog is by a columnist in their field of expertise, so does meet our reliable source standards. (On the other hand, #8 on his list of top evangelism stories was a Barna report that nobody knows who the top Christian leaders are, see [1].) GRBerry 05:19, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
  • strong delete using only the information provided or referenced in the article, the subject is non-notable. Again, I stress that WP:BIO states the subject of multiple sources... this pastor is not the subject of the articles referenced, his church, the movement, and a specific event were the subject of the articles. He is mentioned in, or is the source of the information in these articles, but NOT the subject of them. He is probably a very nice man, revered in his community and church, but we can't have everyone in wiki. Jerry lavoie 01:37, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

Comment Since the man is a published author, perhaps we should list his books and treat this by the criteria of any other writer. User:Dimadick

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.