Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/J.P. Calderon

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus. W.marsh 19:59, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] J.P. Calderon

J.P. Calderon (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) - (View log)

Non-notable reality show contestant Maelwys 00:08, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

• Delete - as nom --Maelwys 00:13, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
• Comment - See also Talk:J.P. Calderon for a discussion that's already gone on about this, which we unfortunately couldn't come to agreement on, which is why this came to AfD --Maelwys 00:13, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
• Delete - I had been hoping that the author would allow a merge into Cook Islands without having to resort to this. Perhaps a Survivor contestants page is needed so that we don't have to go through this for every new season. -- Scorpion 00:16, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
• Strong keep. Full disclosure, I wrote the article. The article is about a nationally-ranked college athlete who went on to become an acknowledged (albeit admittedly not particularly successful) professional, who has been/is part of the cast of two different reality television series. The nominator acknowledges on the talk page that there are already two sources noted in the article (The Calgary Sun article and the TV Guide article), along with several other references which he dismisses for various questionable reasons, but then goes on to claim that the two reliable sources are somehow "not notable" enough to sustain the article. Nominator hangs the AfD on his contention that someone would have to finish 4th on Survivor to be notable (a contention which as far as I can tell is unsupported in policy or guidelines) and on his dismissal of two reliable sources as "non-notable" which makes no sense. Scorpion redirected the article without comment and, when I restored it, redirected it again with the rationale that there are other Survivor contestants who are more notable but who don't have articles. This is an invalid rationale. A subject's notability is independent of another subject's notability. If the hundred other Survivor conestants are as or more notable than Calderon, then Scorpion or whoever else is free to write articles about them. Their absence is not an excuse to delete this article. There has been nothing offered in terms of either Wiki-policy or Wiki-guidelines under which this article is not acceptable. Otto4711 00:23, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
  • They are not absent because nobody wanted to create them. They are absent because they have already been deleted. It's called precedent, and they were not found notable. -- Scorpion 00:53, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

• Which brings me back to the point that the notability of one subject has no bearing on the notability of another. If these hundred other articles all got deleted, it's irrelevant to whether or not this article is within Wikipedia policy and guidelines. You have yet to offer a rationale that relies on actual Wikipedia policy or guidelines under which this article is not acceptable. Otto4711 01:08, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

• 'Merge and redirect. I read the debate, which seems to center around the question of whether 2 sources automatically qualifies as "multiple." For this issue I came down on the side of delete (really M&R) because of a different consideration. I consider this person as unlikely to do anything notable in the future (i.e. his "career" ended with the show). If he had gotten a movie deal or something similar that would keep him on the radar, then I would have voted "keep." 2 sources is on the fence -- it could go one way or the other -- but since this person seems unlikely to ever get more attention I say merge. (Before anyone flames me, I'd like to note that this isn't policy, or a guideline, or anything. I know this. The problem is that the guidelines are few in number, and in this case don't clearly tell us what to do. And since they are just that -- guidelines -- it doesn't make sense to interpret them literally. How many sources constitutes "multiple," for example, varies depending on the nature of the article.) --N Shar 00:32, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

• His career did not end with Survivor, as he is currently appearing on The Janice Dickinson Modeling Agency which is airing now. Otto4711 00:35, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

• Comment. Yes -- in addition, he's probably (I don't know for sure) still a volleyball player. But it still seems unlikely to me (although I freely admit this is conjecture and opinion) that he will ever again receive the attention that a Survivor contestant receives. I removed the incorrect wording from my post above. (By the way, he should probably be added to the JDMA article, 'cause he doesn't seem to be there.)

• He's in the season 2 episode list article, since that's the season he's in. I guess I'm confused as to why if your criteria for !voting "keep" is that he is supposed to land something that keeps him "on the radar" his joining the JDMA show is insufficient.Otto4711 01:05, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

• 'Keep, possibly Merge Agree the Calgary Sun and TV Guide articles satisfy WP:BIO and there is no WP:BLP problem, so he meets policy criteria. Would welcome a merge. --Shirahadasha 02:16, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
• Merge into a page about Survivor contestants, per Scorpion's suggestion. JCO312 03:08, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
  • It should be noted that I had tried to merge the page previously, which the creator was extremely opposed to. -- Scorpion 03:11, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

• It should be noted that what you actually did was redirect the page to the Survivor: Cook Islands article without making any attempt to preserve the information through merging, which yes, I do object to. I have no problem with there being a Survivor contestants page, however, if the contestant is separately notable--as Calderon is--then there is no reason not to have a separate article for that contestant. Otto4711 03:37, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
  • You still haven't explained what makes him seperately notable from Survivor. It seems that Survivor is his main claim to fame. -- Scorpion 03:44, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

• I have explained several times very clearly exactly why I believe he is notable separate from Survivor. I'm a little unclear why someone as...invested...in Survivor as you clearly are is interested in deleting an article on a Survivor contestant who has established notability beyond the show, but that's up to you to figure out for yourself I guess. I have yet to see you offer up a single reason based in Wiki-policy or Wiki-guidelines that this article has run afoul of. Otto4711 04:02, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

• Jeff Varner become a noted reporter, as did Hunter. I have no problems with them having pages. Sundra was in several TV shows before Survivor, again no problem. There are far more notable Survivors whose pages have been deleted because they weren't considered notable, thus taking his time on Survivor out. Apart from that, all he has is some minor reality TV show and once again, there is precedent because few raialty contestants outside Survivor, The Apprentice, American Idol or The Amazing Race have pages. -- Scorpion 16:55, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

• Weak keep Sourcing looks fine. Given that independent coverage is avaiable, and that some of the people who "placed" don't seem any more likely to "do anything notable in the future", it seems a bit arbitrary to draw a line at "final 4". It also seems a bit unwieldy to merge all these contestants into the parent article. But I'm not too up on my reality show contestants to make this a strong vote. Abu-Fool Danyal ibn Amir al-Makhiri 04:15, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
• Keep He seems to be notable enough to keep. Survivor contestants usually are. Somitho 10:03, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
• Keep a few small pieces of notableness add up, this guy is well above the cutoff. —siroχo 12:15, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
• Merge usually I wouldn't cite precedent, but I think this is a different case. Dåvid ƒuchs (talk • contribs) 16:39, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

• Where exactly are you suggesting this be merged to? It would completely unbalance the Survivor: Cook Islands article. No other Survivor season article that I've looked at has a space for expanded contestant information and there does not appear to be any other logical destination. Otto4711 16:52, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

• Comment: I'd like to direct attention to the afd for Cadice Woodcock, a contestant from the same season who according to CBS polls is one of the most popular of all-time and she lasted 10 weeks longer. Her page was deleted. The afd for Kathy Vavrick-O'Brien, far more popular, far more notable, was on TWO seasons of Survivor, no page. -- Scorpion 17:17, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

• WP:CCC and the notability of one subject is still irrelevant to the notability of another. Otto4711 17:51, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

• Keep. Even if other Survivor contestants have been considered not notable, J.P. Calderon passes with mutiple references. And the dictionary definition of multiple is "more than one". --Eastmain 17:21, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
• Keep Appears in multiple articles from notable publications. So notable. Also note that if the same sorts of references are available for the other contestents mentioned by Scorpion above, then the articles should probably be recreated and the deletion rescinded. (If no references are available, though, the deletion would stand). Dugwiki 17:53, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment You do realize that those two newspaper articles are merely standard interviews that every ex Survivor gives once being voted out? They have nothing to do with his time before or after the show. -- Scorpion 20:32, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
    • • Please read WP:NOTE. Please also read WP:POINT as the only reason I can discern for your objection to this article is that some of your personal favorite contestants got their pages deleted. Please also stop disrupting Wikipedia by repeatedly editing Template:Survivor contestants to remove the Calderon link with no justification. Otto4711 20:47, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
        • It seems to me that you are the one trying to protect the article for your favourite contestant. -- Scorpion 00:49, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

• Actually I've never seen an entire episode of Survivor. I probably couldn't name ten other contestants and had never heard of Calderon before he showed up two weeks ago on JDMA. I just don't like how you tried to take ownership of this article, I don't think you've conducted this entire exercise appropriately, I question your motivation in supporting this nomination and I strongly disagree with the stated reasons for deletion. Otto4711 03:26, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

• • • Yeah, that was basically my point when I said that even though those two are technically "multiple" that I didn't interpret them as being sufficient in notability, because as you say they're just standard interviews that everybody does. Even the very first person voted off, that's only on the show for 1 episode (as one of ~20 people there for that hour) gets his TV guide interview published, and gets to appear on a talk show the next morning and the whole thing. But by the next week you've already forgotten who he is, and by the time they do the reunion show nobody even recognizes him. His 15 seconds of fame is over, and he's already an unfamiliar face. Basically, he's non-notable, in spite of a couple interviews he gave during that 15 seconds. --Maelwys 20:49, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
• Merge To a page listing all other Cook Islands contestants, and delete all contestant pages. Otherwise, just delete. --TeckWiz^Talk Contribs_@ 20:59, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

  Why not merge and redirect? Merging doesn't have much point if someone looking for the merged information is unable to find it, no? Redirecting, however, could help them find said coverage. Picaroon 22:28, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

• Keep seems to meet notability requirements and WP:BIO. Notability does not expire. — brighterorange (talk) 21:04, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
  • Comments How so? Here is the entertainment related criteria at WP:BIO, and it's already been established that being on Survivor alone isn't enough for a page.
    • Widely recognized entertainment personalities and opinion makers (e.g., - Hollywood Walk of Fame) - Nope
    • The person has been a primary subject of multiple non-trivial published works whose source is independent of the person - All of the interviews were mandatory Survivor interviews conducted because of his Survivor involvement, not because of his self notability
    • Notable actors and television personalities who have appeared in well-known films or television productions. Notability can be determined by:
      • Multiple features in popular culture publications such as Vogue, GQ, Elle, FHM or national newspapers. - The only articles cited are mandatory interviews that come automatically after elimination. Meaning that none of the interviews were conducted because of his notability
        • I think he clearly passes this criterion. Why does it matter if they are "mandatory"? In addition, as Otto has shown, he may meet WP:BIO for his involvement in college and professional sports. I am not a survivor fan at all, by the way. — brighterorange (talk) 15:19, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
      • A large fan base, fan listing or "cult" following - No indication of that
      • An independent biography - Not much of a biography
      • Name recognition - They didn't even tell his last name on Survivor
      • Commercial endorsements - None indicated
  • He fails of the criteria listed there, as well, will anyone really find such a page necessary in 100 years. A google search yielded 20,200 results, but compare this with Sekou Brunch (20,700 results) and Cecilia Mansilla (32,100) who were both voted out before J.P. and compare this with the people from CI that do have pages: Jonathan Penner (73,500) , Ozzy Lusth (79,000), Becky Lee (54,500) and Yul Kwon (105,000), so how does that make him a stand out? -- Scorpion 01:05, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

• You know, I recently argued for the inclusion of Calderon on his talk page believing that he satisfies WP:BIO and WP:NOTE and someone dismissed them, saying "It's just a guideline, not a policy." I'm trying to remember who it was who was so dismissive...oh right, it was you. Kind of odd that you're arguing for WP:BIO to be the measure today when you dismissed it yesterday...
• Note that WP:BIO also has guidelines for athletes: "Sportspeople/athletes/competitors who have played in a fully professional league, or a competition of equivalent standing in a non-league sport such as swimming, or at the highest level in mainly amateur sports or other competitive activities that are themselves considered notable, including college sports in the United States." Calderon competed for California State University, Long Beach in men's volleyball and coaches women's volleyball. CSULB's article notes that its men's and women's volleyball teams are both highly nationally ranked. He is also a ranked player by the Association of Volleyball Professionals, which its article notes is the premiere professional beach volleyball league in the United States. I have already acknowledged that his pro volleyball career has not been stellar but that doesn't mean that his volleyball career should not be considered in addition to his appearances on Survivor and JDMA. I happen to think his reality TV career is by itself sufficient to establish notability but his TV cast appearances plus his sporting career are definitely enough to qualify him as notable. Otto4711 03:46, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
  • Hey, you said to cite some guidelines, and I did, so don't get angry and keep in mind WP:CIVIL. I looked at that Volleyball article, and very few of them have pages, not even the two players who the article claims were the top ranked in 2005. Precedent has already been established for Survivor articles, and if not even the top ranked AVP players have pages, then the main reason for his page is JDMA, which he hasn't done anything of note in, and by the way, none of the contestants from that article have individual pages, not even JDs page is linked from there. -- Scorpion 03:59, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

• I'm quite aware of WP:CIVIL, thanks. You might want to re-familiarize yourself with WP:3RR, seeing as how following your fifth revision of the Survivor template I reported you for it.

• It seems to me that it is YOU that needs to familiarize yourself with WP:3RR. -- Scorpion 13:33, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

• Calderon's page is linked to The Janice Dickinson Modeling Agency episodes (Season 2), which, since that is where he is appearing and since those of us who maintain the JDMA articles don't want the S2 models on the main page yet, is where he should be linked. Janice Dickinson's page is linked in the intro of the Janice Dickinson Modeling Agency article, which is where it should be linked. Whether or not any of the other models or whether any other AVP players have pages (and over a dozen of their articles are linked to the AVP page so why you would claim they don't is unfathomable) or whether any of the other JDMA models have articles is irrelevant to whether Calderon is notable. Otto4711 04:22, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

• Delete I don't want to see a Wikipedia where every contestant on every reality show has the right to a Wikipedia article. This person has done nothing notable but be in two reality shows, gaining on the low end of normal media attention for this. A career of reality shows may be notable - but two shows does not yet qualify as a career. I believe this person fails WP:BIO. Lyrl ^Talk _C 02:59, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
• Keep for adequate notability. Doczilla 08:48, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
• Keep for adequate notability. This guy is on multiple TV shows and is being talked about in other media and was an athlete before that. I searched for him on Google and found this Wikipedia article valuable.Wikedit9 09:05, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
• Keep, for adequate notability as above. Thedreamdied 15:58, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
• Note additional source which will be published in February 2007 (cover image currently available). Otto4711 05:16, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
• Delete reality show contestants aren't inherently notable, nor is every failed athlete. /Blaxthos 23:33, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.