Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/InterFuse

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was Merge to List of regional Burning Man events. Action to be taken by others. Jerry talk ¤ count/logs 03:07, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] InterFuse

InterFuse (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) (delete) – (View log)

Another regional offshoot event of Burning Man. Not notable on its own, no independent reliable sources to verify anything in the article. (Sound familiar?) - Realkyhick (Talk to me) 06:32, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so that consensus may be reached.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Ryan Postlethwaite 23:04, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
  • Keep. The larger events are notable. This one claims 700 participants, which means there's much more interest in this topic than many of the things on WP. This article should stay so that editors can fix the concerns about sources. Bry9000 (talk) 20:42, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
  • Comment: There seems to be somewhat of a consensus at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Frostburn (Regional Burn), sn article similar to this one which also nominated for AfD, to merge these articles into one larger article with sections devoted to each event, then redirect this and the other articles to the appropriate section. How does that sound? - Realkyhick (Talk to me) 04:36, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
  • Comment:

Realkyhick made the most profound argument for continuation of the Interfuse entry in Wikipedia. Realkyhick noted that Interfuse is a Regional event of the Burning Man Project. I am of course assuming that Realkyhick is not a Burning Man Participant, thus Realkyhick's knowledge of the event and it's status as an approved Regional event, especially as such an authority on notablity, has demonstrated that the event entry is worthy of notice.

Interfuse is by definition most notable in the Midwest because of its ability to unite the scattered Midwestern Burners to their culture throughout the region.

But don't take my word for it, feel free to contact Zay, the Regional representative for the event. He can be contacted via the email address information found on the Burning Man Project web site. I've not included the link because I'm sure that you can find it.

The Interfuse event entry is for the yearly "event", much like a lunar eclipse which does happen and is considered notable, but the entry is not an advertisment for the organization that sponsors the event, nor is it an advertisment for the Burning Man Community at large.

Interfuse distinguishes itself from other Regional events because of it's namesake, but to post the information below would actually be in violation of "Wiki is no dictionary" guideline. (definition found at www.thefreedictionary.com):

In`ter`fuse´ v. t. 1.

1. To pour or spread between or among; to diffuse; to scatter.

The ambient air, wide interfused, Embracing round this florid earth. - Milton.

2. To spread through; to permeate; to pervade.

Keats, in whom the moral seems to have so perfectly interfused the physical man, that you might almost say he could feel sorrow with his hands. - Lowell.

3. To mix up together; to associate


Interfuse also holds certain truth's to be self evident at each event. Those truths are posted in the entry. At the Interfuse event they build a temporary city-community of tents, domes, light, dance, fire and music in the wilderness. They celebrate diversity continuously through out the event. Then they dismantle the city and Leave No Trace. Not only are all state and federal laws applicable and followed, but the event is re-themed to motivate progressive community interaction.

Specific details about the current stages of the event can be found on the event's website, which was provided as a link.

The effort and community participation necessary to hold the event year after year is a phenomenon in itself, but that is only an opinion. I'm sure that most participants and organizers feel the same way. But you won't find that statment on the page.

I would suggest that Realkyhick re-read the Wiki five pillars that define the character of the project. In an effort to not insert personal opinions, arguments or experiences the article was written as an informative entry about the topic Interfuse, was concise, and with a neutral point of view.

By no means perfect, it was a true representative entry about the event, simply because it was simple and included no upcoming and thus unconfirmable information.

Each Regional event is a separate event. Each letter of the alphabet has a seperate entry, simply because phonetically it is different from every other letter. Each event that is a classified as a regional event, wether they be Burning Man affiliated or no, should have their own entry, simply because they are quite simply geographically different.

I use Wiki on a regular basis, sometimes as a starting point for research, sometimes as a tool for clarification. Many who might use Wiki in the same way would lose valuable information in reference to the Interfuse entry if it were deleted. I personally would have liked to have seen previous art shown at the event on the Wiki entry. I followed the provided links and saw great examples of similarly expressive work, much like I what I experienced when I attended a regional out east, which happens to NOT be marked for deletion. Of course if works of art were included in the entry, there would need to be cross referencing, artist permission, and seperate pages created. Works of art should of course be listed on an artist entry page, much like each state lists "notable" residents.

I know the last time I tried to devote time and energy to an artist page that had profound effect, was worth notice, not only by myself but to an entire neighborhood in New York City, it was of course scheduled for deletion by an editor much like your self: someone who wanted something besides actual "information". I might have been mistaken when I thought that "information" IS the most notable part of Wikipedia.

If you would like to read published text about the Burning Man Community and find the actual atributes of a regional please see the listings on the Burning Man Project site. Feel free to contact anyone, listed, speak to them in person if you need to verify the existience of any Regional event, it's notablness, it's independence in and of itself. It is my hope that then those that would delete this entry would at least understand that somethings in reality, their distinction and discription, depend not on words, or on an opinion of them; they simply exist. A mere mention of them is sometimes enough for those looking for an entry about them. Contemplate deletion, but be first willing to part with something before any experimentation with the impermanent aspect of anything. Otherwise some might start to call ya a

Burner(Burning Man).


lyriclees

Comment: That has to be the most long-winded AfD argument I have ever seen in nearly three years of editing. It's so long-winded, in fact, that it is terribly ineffective. But moreover, lyriclees is twisting my words to the point that he is engaging in outright falsehood. To say that my recognition that my recognition that Interfuse is "the most profound argument for continuation of the Interfuse entry" is patently absurd, and blatantly wrong. I recognize the status as a regional Burning Man event because the article says it is, and for no other reason at all. But that doesn't make it notable! More to the point, there are no reliable, INDEPENDENT sources that indicate whether or not the event meets notability standards. The official web site does not count, because its content is controlled by the event organizers, who may or may not provide accurate information about the event. Some guy named "Zay" is not a reliable source, more multiple reasons. The Burning Man project site is not an independent, reliable source, because it is affiliated with this event. To say that each regional Burn event should have its own entry because each letter of the alphabet is different and, ergo, each regional Burn is different — well, I'm trying to be polite here, but that make absolutely, positively no sense whatsoever. I take considerable umbrage as this editor's suggestion that I re-read "Five Pillars." As someone who has spent way too much time over the past 2½ years-plus writing, editing and policing Wikipedia, I'm bloody sure I have a very good idea of what Wikipedia is and isn't. It isn't a listing of non-notable subjects. Interfuse simply does not meet Wikipedia standards of notability, no matter what "Zay" says. If a newspaper or magazine that has no connection with Burning Man recognized this event with some sort of coverage (more than a trivial "coming events" announcement that any event can get), I woule be inclined to change my opinion. - Realkyhick (Talk to me) 06:01, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
  1. Please be nice to the newcomers. So he wrote a lot and used one ineffective argument among all his other points; big deal.
  2. You write that the page doesn't have verifiable sources, but then you spend half your post above trying to disqualify certain sources. By those standards, a great deal of material on WP would be disqualified. A better conclusion is to let the largest regional Burning Man events have their own pages, merge the smaller ones, and give editors and fans a chance to find more independent sources.
  3. Several editors have argued emphatically that certain regional Burning Man events that claim a *small* attendance should be considered non-notable on the basis of attendance numbers alone. This is apparently not such an event; it claims 700 participants and is thus not "non-notable" by those same standards. Merge the smallest ones; keep this and other large ones. Bry9000 (talk) 16:32, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
Comment: It seems that Realkyhick fancied themself slighted or insulted because I, a reader/user posted my "talk" that questioned their long standing (2.5 years) experience, much like the question posed about the legitimacy of fledgling Regionals. I requested that the pillars be re-read because Realkyhick assumes as stated above, the right to "police" Wikipedia entries. Call me old fashioned, but I think that information should always remain free from personal bias and from biased enforcers. In the pillars it calls for neutrality in editing. That is why I often referr to the information in Wikipedia.

The discussion has gone from what is notable based on content of information, to notable based on attendance records, and thus classification of actual independent events as entries, to classification as popular and unpopular events. The events are actually for the participants, just as the information in this forum is for the reader/user.

And once again a point that I tried to make, has been proven by Realkyhick's own response. What one might call indepth and expressive, might seem "long winded" to another. If it be deemed too long to read, it can of course be seen by the unfamiliar as ineffective.The entries should be left as they are, separate and simple, and as a user I'd ask that the editor that brought the entries into question should be sanctioned in what ever way that this site handles the issue.

To give a few "chosen" regionals their own pages "especially" for demonstrating record attendance based on last years numbers again goes against the principals that the events are based on, and would only be decided as an appropriate thing to do by people who don't really know what they are talking about. The regional events are held based partially on geograhpy, hence the "Regional" title, not a need to gain local recognition or publication, something that's begining to look like a foreign concept here.

A collation of regional events posted on the Burning Man Project entry page, each leading to their own page would show more neutrailty than a few chosen regionals garnering their own pages, (ie Finches and Darwin's Finches) but then that would go against the nature of the event which is to have the main event and the regionals stand alone on their own. Burners tend to call that self reliance.

It is also pertinent at this point to direct any reader back to the Burning Man Project contacts for clarification about media involvment at any event and the need for participants to feel free, and to express themselves as such. It also allows each participant to not have to defend their view of the experience when bombarded with the perceptionally biased views published in a locally syndicated journal that prints most often what's fit to increase circulation. Unless a event has been experienced I don't expect any reader to "understand". That is why the events are posted as they are: so that if the entry sounds so interesting that personal research is deemed necessary, then specific event attendance information, called an "invitation", can be found using the links provided.

Information not only about the rigorous process to be come a regional, but the ideals behind the regional events is posted on the Burning Man Project website. I directed readers there for information clarification. If the assumption stands that all information on the internet is an "unreliable" source, and that of course only "mass produced publications" are legitimate, fine, but then then some reasearch into propoganda might also come in handy.

So unless this forum is advocating that every participant or "fan" become "deviants" of the event process simply to satisfy a purposeful lack of local independent sources that report on the events, I suggest that no one hold their breath for a "chance to find" more "independent" sources. If the media attends as participants, not as "writers with an agenda" then they might just create a piece that clarifies how notable the regional events actually are.

And FYI, he's a she, but you'll have to take my word for it.

lyriclees —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.142.10.152 (talk) 07:24, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

Oops, sorry about the gender assumption in my use of "he." Bry9000 (talk) 09:28, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
This is not a forum. It's an encyclopedia. Representatives of the mass media are perfectly capable of attending an event without becoming participants, and they need not abandon their principles of professional journalism to recognize the notability (or lack thereof) of an event. I should know — I'm a member of the mass media. We're here to document, not promote an event or an agenda, even though I'll be the first to admit that the media sometimes overstep those bounds of professionalism — John McCain vs. New York Times, for instance. Still, Wikipedia requires reliable, independent sources to prove the notability of a subject. That's not my rule, but Wikipedia's. Information on the Internet is often reliable, particularly that published by recognized media organizations, academic or professional journals, and the like. Information sources controlled by the subject — primary sources — are frequently used here, but they should not be the sole source, because they may not be the most objective source of informaiton about a subject, its notability and its veracity. That's why these Wikipedia policies are in place, as well as policies against promotion. - Realkyhick (Talk to me) 07:38, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

This right here, where these comments are posted, this is actually a forum. Wikipedia is a multilingual, web-based, free content encyclopedia project. In the project there are articles. Even the guidelines for Wiki tell you that the concesus process is because EVERY writer or author will present a biased opinion, that includes the editors here, and the Mass Media out there.

It is the process of concensus, and not just one editor, that makes the final entry of neutral view. This project is to ensure that the information posted is the most "real time" information about lots of things, including events.

Promotion includes an invitation. The entry for Interfuse was lacking not only grandstanding about the event, but also a flat out invitation, so it was not a promotional item, if that's what is being insinuated.

In re:"Representatives of the mass media are perfectly capable of attending an event without becoming participants, and they need not abandon their principles of professional journalism to recognize the notability (or lack thereof) of an event." This statement completely demonstrates Realkyhick's lack of knowledge about the ablity to remain PROFESSIONALLY unbiased as a reporter on any event. Reporters should use the gift of writing to record the event as they EXPERIENCE it, not as they personally PERCEIVE it. Perception condones a preconceived notion, where as submersion into participation without agendas to be looked out for leads to real expression, and that's what resonates with readers. Mass Media Members like Realkyhick are no better suited to the Regional actual events described in the entries, any more than serenity is compatable with veracity, hence the lack there of for independent sources that can attest to the "truthiness" of the events.

And I quote: "Wikipedia has advantages over traditional paper encyclopedias. Wikipedia has a very low "publishing" cost for adding or expanding entries and a low environmental impact, since it need never be printed. Also, Wikipedia has wikilinks instead of in-line explanations and it incorporates overview summaries (article introductions) with the extensive detail of a full article. Additionally, the editorial cycle is short. A paper encyclopedia stays the same until the next edition, whereas writers update Wikipedia at every instant, around the clock, ensuring that it stays abreast of the most recent events and scholarship."

I still say leave the Interfuse entry as is until July of 2008, with a wikilink on the non-neo-notable and "independently verifiable" source of the Burning Man (Project) entry if the "OC of the pedia" police make it a must. If there are no "non-website" sources that meet the Wiki standards after that, by all means merge it into a long list of Regionals with the break away "already published" events getting their own page.

lyriclees

ps thanks bry

  • Comment: Lyriclees' comments above again demonstrate his complete lack of understanding about the concept of notability in regards to Wikipedia, as well the role and professional principles of journalists. I know more about reportig and writing than Lyriclees ever will, and I take strong exception to his assertion to the contrary. Apparently his concept of a real journalist is one who agrees with his view. Apparently he believes that, since any Burn event is on a totally different metaphysical plane, there's no way any mere reporter can be expected to understand it. That's pure bollocks. These events must meet the same notability criteria as any other event. Period. Merge this into the "list of" article with all the others. - Realkyhick (Talk to me) 18:35, 1 March 2008 (UTC)
  • Comment:

And Realkyhick's comment again proves the point that most "real" journalists are more concerned about what they think they see and don't report the real facts. I also think that real writers are first good readers. Realkyhick obviously wants to disregard actual information like the fact included previously that this he is actually a she. I understand the "concept" of notability, it's been made quite crystal clear. I still think that in this specific case merging to a "list of" not only does amounts to a load of shite, because the application of the "concept" in this case would be detrimental to readers/users. I asked for an extension of merge, and would still like to see that happen.

By the bye, a real jornalist in my view would not cloud an issue with personal perception. Journalist's like that are not often found. I never claimed to be a reporter or a writer, or assert my expertise. I never questioned Realkyhick's expertise as a writer, only as an editor.

I just figured, as a reader, that any one who only uses perjoratives as their persuasion can't be a very perceptive person, and of course lumped Realkyhick in with those who can't actually use words properly. Those are the kinds of journalists who fail to be able to find them (words) at events like those that are supposed to be lumped together.

Those are the kinds of journalists who would be better off as participants with no agenda, rather than as floundering professionals who try to recap reality in the dash for the deadline.

lyriclees —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.142.10.152 (talk) 01:54, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

  • It has become quite obvious that your notion of "real facts" in relation to this subject is greatly clouded by your obvious devotion to the subject and the Burn movement, and no amount of rational discussion could sway you. I am reminded by a fellow reporter (who got quite a kick out of this whole discussion) that trying to debate such issues with such people is like mud wrestling with a pig — you just get dirty, and the pig likes it (whether it's a he or a she). - Realkyhick (Talk to me) 09:47, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
  • Comment:The "real fact" is that I am going through the proper channels to try to make a significant contribution and try and effect a much needed change to a common misconception. That doesn't mean that things will actually change, nor does that mean that everyone will approve of my attempts.

Even before tools such as encyclopedias existed, humans have been trying to perfect the system of classification. The real truth is that sometimes things defy even classifcation, especially when they are in the first stages of their evolution. The events set to be lumped together are a perfect example. This venue, the wikipedia articles, seemed to be the place for an entry such as the informative article on Interfuse. I guesse I figure if I'm lucky at all, then someone might not mind another figure, and the Interfuse entry won't fall "by the way" side before it is "professionally and independently" backed.

I am of course glad that your friend got a kick out of the discussion. And while I can appreciate your friends view about how the stodgy might not relish the idea of getting down and dirty, where I come from it's something that has to be done.

This discussion reminds me of one that I had with my grandfather about raising sheep when I was very young. The first time that I was able to participate in the birth of a new herd of I was delighted. Within a few days, the lambs had their tails cut off. I was of course horrified. When I asked why that had to be done I was told that it was to stop the lambs from getting sick until they learned how to take care of themselves.

I've grown up alot since then, but I have never stopped asking why. My grandfather was a good man, but he was really just a laundromat owner who was forced out of business by the "expenses" of a war. I've since learned that real care, and not just of the lambs, but the surroundings-the workers, the land, the feed, the water, the pens-will enable the lamb to still be well while it learns to take care of itself. It takes alot of consideration and "dirty work", but the tails do not have to be cut off.

Pigs are of course fun to wrestle, one at a time, and when slaughtered correctly, they make really good bacon.

lyriclees —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.142.10.152 (talk) 18:37, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.