Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/If I Were A Bell
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- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result of the debate was no consensus. Petros471 19:43, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
[edit] If I Were A Bell
The article is about a single song from the musical 'Guys and Dolls'. It doesn't belong in an encyclopedia. Ixistant 17:43, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
- Keep Guys and Dolls is one of the best known musicals ever. I would say the song is definitely notable. Irongargoyle 17:54, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
- Comment Should be moved to If I Were a Bell. Irongargoyle 18:13, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
- Merge and redirect to the Guys and Dolls article per nom. The musical is notable, but on its own the song isn't. Kimchi.sg 18:25, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
- Merge per Kimchi.sg Tevildo 20:58, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
- Redirect. There isn't anything worth merging into Guys and Dolls here. —Cuiviénen 21:38, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
- Keep The song has a life apart from the musical and deserves a separate article. Fg2 13:58, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
- Keep The song most definitely does have a life of its own. The jazz giant Miles Davis has recorded it on several occasions and it was a staple of his stage show for many years. It has been recorded by others jazz and non-jazz as an instrumental and as a song. The chord structure is appealing to jazzmen as a base for improvisation. Perhaps there is a musicologist out there who can explain why this is so. The lyric too is worthy of study. It is basically monosyllabic, wheras Frank Loesser is usually polysyllabic. There is a need on Wikipedia for quality articles about quality songs, and this is certainly one. Guy 23:04, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
- I think all of the songs that Fiona Apple has recorded are quality, but I also know that not all of them deserve articles. Extraordinary Machine 23:56, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
- But surely the variety of artistes making recordings of particular songs suggests the songs each to be worthy of an article regardless of the quality of the particular song? (Look at all the ghastly versions of My Way which has an article). An encyclopaedia needs to be all-inclusive, then people will turn to it for reference. If there are gaps then people will not use it as a reliable source of first choice, and that defeats the object of having an encyclopaedia in the first place. In my opinion this is a problem with Wikipedia coverage of popular song and songwriters, particularly those working between 1920 and 1950 and the stuff they wrote. Even those not on the pop music mainstream since then are not uniformly well treated. If the Frank Loesser article was as good as those for Phil Collins or Stevie Wonder for example, then it would undoubtedly take in this particular song, but I still think the song merits a stand-alone article, as it is a nodal point between jazz and Broadway, Miles Davis and Frank Loesser, Hollywood and various singers. Guys and Dolls is for many people one of the most important musicals written, ditto Miles Davis (to say nothing of sidekick John Coltrane) in the canon of jazz. Guy 02:42, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
- I know what you mean and I think you are making some excellent points; I just didn't agree with the statement "There is a need on Wikipedia for quality articles about quality songs". Extraordinary Machine 11:49, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
- Point taken, EM, that was me with my politician's hat on. There is a hierarchy here, and there will be many users with their own particular interests focused at different levels. A generalist will look at the Broadway/Hollywood musical and will need a brief resume of the major creators and their shows. This will lead to more detailed discussions of individuals which will include biography and career highlights and discuss the major milestones. Then the topic becomes more specialised, and discussion will highlight individual shows and projects, focusing on the material (songs and book), discussion of the plot, the personalities involved, why it worked/failed and other relevant issues. For many shows, different productions are worth separate articles, Guys and Dolls is certainly one, My Fair Lady is another. My own personal view is that all shows of this magnitude ought to be considered at some depth. The perfect illustration of what I mean is the magisterial book by Alan Jay Lerner entitled The Musical Theatre: A Celebration (ISBN 0070372322) which is now out of print, but easily available. The question then arises as to who is going to do this, I am capable, but I have to earn a living, which limits my time. And then there are the individual songs. Not all need an article each, but the stand-out ones do, for Guys and Dolls, If I Were A Bell is a prime example, along with Luck Be a Lady, Sit Down, You're Rocking the Boat and possibly the title song. If I Were A Bell is sung in the show by Sister Sarah, the Salvationist. The lyric builds in intensity until the final verse: "Ask me how do I feel, ask me now that we're fondly caressing, Well, if I were a salad I know I'd be splashing my dressing". Is this eroticism, or what? Perhaps I ought to write it up more fully in the article. This show, these songs, this writer are all among my favourites. On a wider point, under the heading of completeness and comprehensiveness which I raised earlier, I think Wikipedia should have an individual article at least for every song which has topped the Billboard charts and the UK equivalent. I agree that some of these articles would be very thin, but doing this would create a resource which would be widely used in the industry and the spin-off from this would be of great benefit to the Wikipedia project as a whole. Guy 01:55, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
- I know what you mean and I think you are making some excellent points; I just didn't agree with the statement "There is a need on Wikipedia for quality articles about quality songs". Extraordinary Machine 11:49, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
- But surely the variety of artistes making recordings of particular songs suggests the songs each to be worthy of an article regardless of the quality of the particular song? (Look at all the ghastly versions of My Way which has an article). An encyclopaedia needs to be all-inclusive, then people will turn to it for reference. If there are gaps then people will not use it as a reliable source of first choice, and that defeats the object of having an encyclopaedia in the first place. In my opinion this is a problem with Wikipedia coverage of popular song and songwriters, particularly those working between 1920 and 1950 and the stuff they wrote. Even those not on the pop music mainstream since then are not uniformly well treated. If the Frank Loesser article was as good as those for Phil Collins or Stevie Wonder for example, then it would undoubtedly take in this particular song, but I still think the song merits a stand-alone article, as it is a nodal point between jazz and Broadway, Miles Davis and Frank Loesser, Hollywood and various singers. Guys and Dolls is for many people one of the most important musicals written, ditto Miles Davis (to say nothing of sidekick John Coltrane) in the canon of jazz. Guy 02:42, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
- I think all of the songs that Fiona Apple has recorded are quality, but I also know that not all of them deserve articles. Extraordinary Machine 23:56, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
