Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Hush (Tool song)

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was:

• keep Hush (Tool song), Jambi (song), Lateralus (song), Forty-Six & 2
• merge Disgustipated and Die Eier Von Satan following work done on article to Undertow (Tool album) and Ænima respectively
• redirect all others to respective albums.

(Note that this solution keeps the edit histories of all affected articles intact.) Orderinchaos 08:35, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Hush (Tool song)

Hush (Tool song) (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) – (View log)

Fails WP:MUSIC, Wikipedia notability guidelines (no independent coverage - they are literally just songs on an album), cannot be verified beyond their actual existence, and cannot be improved with reliable sources. Several of the articles in this category contain significant original research that does not have a place in an encyclopaedia. Many of them have been tagged for cleanup for at least 5 months. I must add I feel very sad nominating articles related to my favourite band, but it pays them no favours to have these articles here, they belong at toolshed.down.net or a fan site. Note I have not nominated several others which either won an award or charted or related to a single release and hence met WP:MUSIC.

I am also nominating the following related pages because they fall into the same category:

Die Eier von Satan (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) (not even a song)

Disgustipated (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) (also contains possible copyvio)

Forty-Six & 2 (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs)

H. (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs)

Hooker with a Penis (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs)

Jambi (song) (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) closed keep as meets WP:MUSIC.

Lateralus (song) (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) closed keep per clear consensus.

The Grudge (song) (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs)

Third Eye (song) (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs)

Orderinchaos 10:18, 12 May 2007 (UTC)]]

[edit] Hush, Lateralus, Jambi

[edit] All others

General comment: for some of the songs, where OR or unverifiability is suggested, try a google search (add the parameter "site:toolshed.down.net" at first).

Proposal: Merge all articles that do not stand out but are verifiable and interesting in regards to describing the bands characters. Which would mean:

Strong merge with Ænema, Undertow:

Forty-Six & 2: as per Daveh4h

Third Eye (song): references Bill Hicks, to whom the entire album was dedicated.. noteworthy! [3]

Disgustipated: The thing actually stems from a "historic" acoustic live set with Alice in Chains, RATM, or at least the idea.. that night they smashed a lot of instruments.... In the studio, sledgehammers were used to reenact. [4] The last part, the speech about the carrots is by Bill Hicks, the voice is instantly recognizable imho, but the only source I have until now confirms only that it's recited by "Bill". [5]

Weak delete: Hooker with a Penis: although there is a source saying the song is about selling out ([6]) I don't really know if that is really interesting enough..

delete Die Eier Von Satan.. sources documenting this song are aplenty, but weak notability..

delete The Grudge as per Daveh4h

Delete H.... as per Daveh4h

I would be willing to do some of the proposed changes myself, but am currently working on the Tool article itself, to complete the drive towards GA. But, with a little help, it could work I guess =) Johnnyw talk 18:07, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

In response to sources documenting this song are aplenty, but weak notability..: This is the definition of notability. –Pomte 01:18, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

I was trying to say that the sources that exist only mention the song, but don't go into detail or deliver any substance to the article. Sources I have gathered now state the obvious: [7], [8] this tool newsletter states that the song has been used without consent in a movie trailer for a Jenna Jameson porn.. but that's it.Johnnyw talk 09:55, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

• here we go:

1. Delete Die Eier Von Satan. As noted, it's not even a song. Not notable.
2. Delete Disgustipated. More of a song than the previous, but not notable. Removing the lyrics would leave the article bare, and I think the lyrics in the article is a copyvio. Besides the lyrics, it is original research.
3. Keep Forty-Six & 2. Single received a lot of airplay and this article actually has references.
4. Delete H. - Not notable, original research.
5. Delete Hooker with a Penis. Only interesting part of it is the meaning part, and that appears to be original research.
6. Delete The Grudge. Not notable enough for its own article, original research.
7. Merge anything verifiable/usable in Third Eye (song) to Ænima. I think that some of the info in this may be verifiable, but am concerned with it as a standalone article.

Much of the info in the articles nominated is redundant from the album articles. We would be better off focusing on anything verifiable from these articles to potentially expand and refine their respective album articles. I'm open to any arguments to the contrary. daveh4h 11:57, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

Well my statements will probably be redundant, but:

1. Delete or Merge Die Eier Von Satan. Not even a song, but I don't think this should disappear altogether, maybe put in the parent article. It's a classic example of Tool's disinformation, which I think is an important aspect of the band.
2. Delete Disgustipated. Just not important enough
3. Weak keep Forty-Six & 2. Shows the evolutionary themes to the band, got a ton of airplay. It's neat info, but if it has to go, oh well.
4. Delete H.. Not notable.
5. Delete Hooker with a Penis. Probably fails OR.
6. Delete The Grudge. Not notable.
7. Delete or Merge Third Eye (song). Not enough information in there. Maybe someone can source it, but this could be an OR cesspool.

Wikidan829 13:50, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

• Keep Forty-Six & 2, Delete the others. EliminatorJR ^Talk 17:56, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

1. Delete Die Eier Von Satan. It is simply nn.
2. Strong Delete Disgustipated. A quote straight from the article: "It is 15:47 long, most of it being only a drumbeat, or a low beeping sound towards the end."
3. Weak Keep Forty-Six & 2. Its played at every show (and is backed up by a source).
4. Delete H.. The title is unreal, but the song is another nn track.
5. Delete Hooker with a Penis for failing OR.
6. Weak Delete The Grudge (song). Interesting time signature, perhaps one of the most, but Tool as a band is notorious for this, making this song seem ordinary.
7. Delete Third Eye (song). The dedication is interesting, but that's it.

Tool is an interesting band, and is very mainstream. For these tracks to be considered notable, they must contain something of value. Through looking at these, Forty-Six & 2 and Lateralus (song) are the only ones I can see with any sort of value.Sens08 23:55, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

• Claims about non-notability may be personal judgments; there are actually independent reliable sources out there about seemingly obscure Tool songs, though I'm not sure about the exact number of them since "tool" isn't the most friendly keyword to search for. I think the WP:MUSIC proposal for songs can be overridden by the presence of RS. All of these songs have some sort of quirk that distinguishes from the others, so at least some of them are bound to be the subject of sources. Some good, reliable ones:

1. Journal article by a Senior Lecturer at the University of Adelaide
2. Academic interview with Keenan by an instructor at the University of Ontario Institute of Technology
3. The Canadian radio show The Ongoing History of New Music has published 10 pages worth of Tool facts

Other student papers are not as reliable, but they can be used for non-controversial facts. The Tool FAQ provides the background info for hunting independent sources, as well as the hundreds of news articles transcribed.

I've been meaning to go through the articles extensively at some point, but so far I've only rewritten Hooker with a Penis and added citations here and there to the various song articles, including the singles not listed here. I'm probably not going to perfect these within 5 days, so for any that get consensus to be deleted, can they be userfied to be worked on over time (with the exception of Disgustipated for copyvio/lack of content reasons)? –Pomte 02:47, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

Comment: That Disgustipated is lacking content is a misconception, although I am really not that sure about that Bill Hicks part anymore.. still, please see my post above. Johnnyw talk 09:13, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

Petition: Please reconsider Disgustipated, I have rewritten the entire article. I think it deserves a second chance.. Johnnyw talk 11:14, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

Comment You did a nice job. I thought this particular entry was un-savable. However, I am still concerned with it as a standalone article. Right now I am thinking Merge to Undertow, but I still want to look at the album articles as they stand now and if we can improve them with these (potentially deleted) articles. daveh4h 21:00, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

Comment Thanks, I knew there was some info on that song, just never came around to work on any song articles.. Well, after looking at the album articles, I'd suggest to keep the best, merge the rest, aka the articles that would get deleted otherwise, with the albums and go on a drive to get the Tool album articles up to par with the band article. The album articles really are in a quite miserable state.. but before that, we should finish with the band article to get it to GA =) --Johnnyw talk 17:22, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

• Keep Forty-Six & 2, Merge others, particularly Disgustipated, with their respective albums. Song notable beyond being on the album. (The formatting of this deletion debate confused me, so I listed it in the regular way.) User:Krator (t c) 18:30, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.