Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Hudson Valley English
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- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was KEEP but reduce to a stub so that it may be rewritten in the future. Herostratus 12:25, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Hudson Valley English
There is no evidence this region has an accent specific to it. Obviously all people have accents, but whether these people are a subset of another kind of accent, an accent in themselves (as this article claims), or there are many accents in this reason needs to be proven. Having been born in and spent most of my life in this region, I can testify everything in the article is false. Шизомби 13:58, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
- Keep; I have seen descriptions of US regional accents/dialects that put that area in its own category. Ex. "Along the Hudson river valley, a second dialect is differentiated, which extends into extreme northeastern Pennsylvania and most of North Jersey; this is notable for its heavy Dutch influence."[1] Squidfryerchef 03:14, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
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- Comment An anonymously written article? No thanks. It also doesn't even make it clear whether it's the whole Hudson river valley for which this suspicious claim is being advanced or just part of it. Шизомби 03:50, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
- This AfD nomination was incomplete. It is listed now. DumbBOT 09:37, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
- Delete. There are a few passing references to an "Albany dialect" or accent, but it's generally considered a minor variant on the New York City dialect. [2] (see also the Lower Hudson Valley dialect, explicitly defined as "below Albany"). This seems to be original research. --Dhartung | Talk 08:11, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
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- That could almost be an argument for "keep". The link to the dialect map says that the Hudson accent is similar to the NYC accent because of the Dutch influence. But, we all know the NYC accent is heavily influenced by Irish, Italian, and Yiddish, where the capital area's accent wouldn't be. The other link that says "below Albany", they probably still mean upstate, not the NYC metro area. So, the article seems to be describing something that exists in the world; if we feel parts of it are WP:OR, we can put up a pastel box for that. Squidfryerchef 12:04, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
- "Almost" "probably" "seems" "if"? You made your argument for delete. Here's one of the other problems: the accent, whatever it might be called, whatever regions it might include, is not similar to NYC at all. Somebody is going to have to do some real research on this at some point. This article by its name and content points people in the wrong direction from the get-go. Шизомби 13:23, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
- No, I made an argument for "Keep". Now I don't understand why the "Hudson Valley" accent being different from the NYC accent is problematic. Are you arguing that the name "Hudson Valley" is wrong because NYC is, at least geologically, part of the Hudson Valley? Squidfryerchef 15:37, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
- "Almost" "probably" "seems" "if"? You made your argument for delete. Here's one of the other problems: the accent, whatever it might be called, whatever regions it might include, is not similar to NYC at all. Somebody is going to have to do some real research on this at some point. This article by its name and content points people in the wrong direction from the get-go. Шизомби 13:23, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
- That could almost be an argument for "keep". The link to the dialect map says that the Hudson accent is similar to the NYC accent because of the Dutch influence. But, we all know the NYC accent is heavily influenced by Irish, Italian, and Yiddish, where the capital area's accent wouldn't be. The other link that says "below Albany", they probably still mean upstate, not the NYC metro area. So, the article seems to be describing something that exists in the world; if we feel parts of it are WP:OR, we can put up a pastel box for that. Squidfryerchef 12:04, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
- Comment I've just put a notice on the Wikipedia:WikiProject Phonetics talk page for an expert to come and see if this is a hoax or not. --Charlene 13:46, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
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- I've added one to Talk:Upstate New York as well. Let's let the hive brain sort this out. Squidfryerchef 15:49, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
- Delete. No doubt the people living in the Hudson Valley speak English with some type of accent. But in the absence of reliable sources showing that the variety of English spoken there has been identified as a distinct dialect, the article is worthless. —Angr 17:17, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
- Keep but rewrite. In fact Labov's paper in this month's issue of Language deals with the dialect of the Albany area as one of his key data sources for a sophisticated dialectological argument; Dinkin & Labov (2007) extend the pattern found in Albany to at least some speakers in Schenectady; and Labov cites Kurath (1949) on the Hudson Valley as a dialect area more generally. However, virtually nothing in the article as it stands is accurate and verifiable as a description of the Hudson Valley dialect, and it needs to be rewritten. AJD 18:31, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
- Then wouldn't it make more sense to delete this article without prejudice toward it being rewritten based on those sources? Because unless you rewrite it yourself, saying "keep but rewrite" will result in it being kept but never rewritten. (If you do rewrite it yourself based on those sources before this AFD is over, let me know and I'll change my !vote.) —Angr 19:51, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
- I don't think so... I mean, an article is deleted based on whether its topic is worthy of being in Wikipedia, not whether the treatment of the topic is correct as it stands. I'd be happy to rewrite it, though I don't have time to at the moment—I am, in actual fact, going to Upstate New York for a few days to do dialectological research(!). But I may have time to at least replace this page with a stub before I go. AJD 20:22, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
- I agree with AJD. Angr has some nice finds, but they work against "Hudson Valley English" as a dialect, finding multiple accents in the region as I suggested in my nom. In part to retain this article, "Hudson Valley English" - that very term - must be one that is actually used by people who study accents. Шизомби 15:54, 10 June 2007 (UTC)
- Huh? AJD is the one with the "nice finds", not me. —Angr 19:50, 10 June 2007 (UTC)
- I got you two reversed in my post, I agree with Angr, AJD had nice finds. Шизомби 01:37, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
- The term "Hudson Valley English" is used by Labov, the principal scholar of American English accents—if not in the article of his that I cite, at least he uses it in a grant proposal he's currently working on. I don't think the cites I provided suggest multiple accents in the region, either. I haven't read Kurath (1949) yet, but the impression I get from Labov's paper is that Kurath characterizes the Hudson Valley as a signle dialect region; and the only modern published dialectological research on Hudson Valley cities (Labov's ANAE research on Albany and Dinkin & Labov 2007 on Schenectady) groups them together. AJD 02:58, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
- Huh? AJD is the one with the "nice finds", not me. —Angr 19:50, 10 June 2007 (UTC)
- Then wouldn't it make more sense to delete this article without prejudice toward it being rewritten based on those sources? Because unless you rewrite it yourself, saying "keep but rewrite" will result in it being kept but never rewritten. (If you do rewrite it yourself based on those sources before this AFD is over, let me know and I'll change my !vote.) —Angr 19:51, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
