Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Holden Dapenor

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or on a Votes for Undeletion nomination). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result of the debate was Delete --Gareth Hughes 15:59, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Holden Dapenor

Possible hoax. A search for Holden Dapenor on Google returns 0 hits.[1] Delete unless sources are provided for verification. --Allen3 talk 22:22, 15 October 2005 (UTC)

Note to closing admin: Please check the edit history of this AfD when closing, there is evidence of possible chicanery in the form of valid votes having been edited out.[2] --Allen3 talk 12:09, 16 October 2005 (UTC)
  • Added recently to the article: "See also: A stupid joke by members of the internet community www.totse.com". So yes, definitely a hoax. Delete accordingly. -- Captain Disdain 00:12, 16 October 2005 (UTC)
  • Delete as probable hoax see Captain Disdain's comment. The lack of Google results also shows distinct verifiability problems. Capitalistroadster 00:30, 16 October 2005 (UTC)
  • Delete it is a hoax, check out [3]. If you don't want to check the link, basically a member wants to name a road near him Holden Dapenor road (Holding Da Pen0r, link holding the penis) so others made stuff to support him. It's a fine joke, but a fraud as far as wikipedia should be concerned.
  • Anon user 65.95.230.15 has removed at least one vfd from this page (mine), and possibly others as well. Still say delete as google doesn't return a single result on a search for Holden Dapenor, or Dapenor alone. Delete unless reliable sources can be found. bjelleklang 12:37, 16 October 2005 (UTC)
  • Keep Temporarily OK so its a hoax. We could at least keep the article until after the vote. It would be too funny to have a street named Holden Dapenor. --AGruntsJaggon 05:43, 17 October 2005 (UTC)
    • Even though it's a hoax, it has no notability outside of the forums or the fake little biography. --Merovingian (t) (c) (e) 05:45, 17 October 2005 (UTC)
  • I ment to that we should keep the fake biography. It wouldnt be seen only by forum goers, it would be a street name where only one of the forum members works. After the street is named there is no reason for any of this to be here. The intention of this article was solely for credibility to get people to vote for the name. There was no intention to trick regular wiki users, and if left alone would have taken up its own little space until the vote. [I would like to note that I am taking no part in revert wars or in deleting other users comments]--AGruntsJaggon 06:15, 17 October 2005 (UTC)
  • To be used as a tool to perpetrate a real-world hoax would damage Wikipedia's reputation considerably. To do so knowingly would be inexcusable. We cannot keep this article in its original form for that reason. In Merovingian's truthful version, it's merely totally non-notable. Haeleth (not logged in) 08:41, 17 October 2005 (UTC)
  • Then it should be deleted. --Merovingian (t) (c) (e) 08:45, 17 October 2005 (UTC)
  • So forget about it for awhile. If no one had said anything then it would have run its course and been removed. But whatever, I'm arguing a moot point. --AGruntsJaggon 05:56, 19 October 2005 (UTC)
  • I know, and I trust you. I doubt the street will actually get this name. --Merovingian (t) (c) (e) 06:22, 17 October 2005 (UTC)*FAP*
  • Locke: despite the rather unfortunate fact that DaPenor's name does have some rather ...interesting... implications to it, Holden was a true pioneer, ask any historian who has studdied the colonization of Michigan. his legend clearly has been altered, but if you have ever been to some of michigan's lesser known museums, you can still see several maps with "Holden DaPenor" signed in the lower left hand corner, proof that this cartographer from the 1800's existed.
  • Captain Shimsham: "Very true. I have seen on of Holden DaPenor's Maps in person in the museum in Michigan."
  • Binary Pirate: "While there is not much information to go on, Holden was real and did (to the best of my knowledge) do the things said in this article. Keep it. YA RLY
  • Comment: I tried to clean this up and restore the deleted votes. -- Kjkolb 13:22, 16 October 2005 (UTC)

i did about holden for history, and even visited one of the outhouses he used.

Anyone who wants to delete this article is doing the State of Michigan a disservice. Even if it is a fake it deserves to be kept for its humor value alone.

This is REAL


  • Pingy*: Holden Dapenor needs to be recognized as a influential member of American history. Without him, we would not have the Michigan that we have today. Besides, this can be used as historical evidence for reports for instance.
  • Berrien County Historical Society: Holden Dapenor was a real man. Although some facts are misrepresented, he was a cartographer in pioneer-era Michigan. There has been hardly any information widely released about him, hence the lack of results in search engines. We are hoping to change that, and bring Dapenor's achievments to light.
  • If this person is real, and of great importance to the history of Michigan, then explain the following: Why does not a search on the term Holden Dapenor return ANY related results on Google, Altavista, Lycos and Yahoo? If this is a real person, he should be mentioned somewhere, at least once on the billions of pages indexed by google! If this article has any humouristic value, it should be stated clearly in the article that it is a hoax! Still say delete, unless an authorative source is found, and referenced! bjelleklang 20:40, 16 October 2005 (UTC)
  • Berrien County Historical Society: Every subject in Google has to be brought up a some point. Sites don't just come up out of nowhere. Information has to be transferred from records to websites. This hasn't been done yet, and that's what we are working on.
  • Even so, if a person is significant enough (as the article claim), he is likely to be mentioned by other sites, and not only on local historic sites! Google has per today more than 4 billion pages indexed, and should contain at least one page where the person is mentioned, as should the other search engines. If an article can't be verified, it does not conform to the sources policy or the verifiability policy, and thus, should be deleted as we have no way of knowing if this is is true! bjelleklang 21:38, 16 October 2005 (UTC)
  • Note the external links at the bottom of the page. The relative obscurity of Holden has this far ensured that his exposure is limited to a few small geocities sites and such. This article is an effort to educate people about a great man.
  • Delete as non-verifiable. The references in the article are not from reputable sources. Even if we could assume good faith and suppose the guy is real: even in that case, this should still be deleted for now. It can always be restored when reliable references are available. Not but that the totse thread makes that really rather difficult to believe... Haeleth 21:06, 16 October 2005 (UTC)
  • Note that the presumed hoaxers have now created Holden Depenor too, with broadly similar content. I've redirected it to Holden Dapenor for now; presumably it can be deleted at the same time. Oh, and this discussion page continues to be vandalised regularly too. Is there no way we can speedy this? :/ Haeleth 00:24, 17 October 2005 (UTC)
  • Libel Do not lie, deanos. The edit to Scrat's_missing_adventure was to change the word "min" to "minute". I clicked the "Random Article" button, and ended up there. I found something I could improve, and I did. Do not try to ruin my reputation by implying I was starting a hoax at that page.

HallofMirrors 01:49, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

  • Delete, Google shows not even the slightest trace of recognizing Dapenor. --Merovingian (t) (c) (e) 04:35, 17 October 2005 (UTC)


  • No, You don't even live near Michigan, Mero. We've said before in the biographies that the guy is only known locally, and we recently decided to make his former presence known on the internet. You have vandalized the page.
    • Of course not, but I have full documentation of the TOTSE users' construction of the hoax. --Merovingian (t) (c) (e) 05:55, 17 October 2005 (UTC)
      • ..., you're begging the question. Please state your parameters.

HallofMirrors 06:02, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

        • I can post the creation of the hoax, if you'd like. --Merovingian (t) (c) (e) 06:08, 17 October 2005 (UTC)
Even if he is a local hero, let's take a look at some things....:
Michigan has approx. 10 mill. inhabitants. The place where I come from (Sandnes, Norway) has approx. 55.000. Even so, a search on a local 'hero' of ours (Jonas Øglænd) return 600 results on google, and the only thing the man did was to produce some bikes about a hundred years ago. My point is that even if he is a local man, he should have been mentioned somewhere on the net, if not, the article is to be removed due to Wikipedias policy on verifiability and original research! You claim that the man is who he is, so it is up to you to provide us with a reputable source, instead of trying to blaim the lack of sources on the fact that he was a local hero... Bjelleklang - talk 06:48, 17 October 2005 (UTC)
The entire thing is staged. It cannot be verified, since it's a hoax. --Merovingian (t) (c) (e) 06:50, 17 October 2005 (UTC)
  • Comment - The creator of the thread who is also the one who came up with the idea to name the road is also an admin on totse. However creating a web-hoax and a wikipedia page was not his idea. No one in charge at totse condones any vandalism here. --AGruntsJaggon 06:20, 17 October 2005 (UTC)
  • Delete admitted hoax; puppetfest. Xoloz 12:33, 17 October 2005 (UTC)
  • keep temporarily at least until the vote goes in for the road. just think of how priceless it would be to be driving along a road named Holden Dapenor Street. (Anonymous comment posted by 24.194.244.40)
  • NOTICE The article discussion page is receiving a huge amount of vandalism.


  • Delete, the article is pointless now, I may make a new one about him clearly stating that he was a hoax with information on his "life and works" after it's deleted. But heck, all of my articles are immediately added to speedy deletion because someone felt my changes weren't important enough. So maybe I won't. HallofMirrors 02:33, 18 October 2005 (UTC)


  • I took it upon myself to edit the article to include the hoax, while preserving the truth (that it IS a hoax). I hope I saved it. HallofMirrors 02:51, 18 October 2005 (UTC)
  • Thank you Mero for fixing spacing. HallofMirrors 03:02, 18 October 2005 (UTC)
    • Sure. Even impending deletions deserve to look their best. --Merovingian (t) (c) (e) 03:55, 18 October 2005 (UTC)
  • I think it should stay exactly the way it is now, with the admitted hoax pretext, and the original article. I think it deserves that status. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.228.91.20 (talk • contribs) 09:21, 18 October 2005 (UTC)
    • It may deserve a place in the hall of fame at WP:-O; I'm not sure it's been notable enough to stay in the main namespace (for example, it didn't fool anyone for long, or attract any comment from those not directly involved in the efforts to spread and/or suppress it). Besides, it's already on Uncyclopedia, isn't it? ;) - Haeleth 11:55, 18 October 2005 (UTC)
  • Delete the hoax.  — Saxifrage | ☎ 07:45, 20 October 2005 (UTC)
  • Delete. Everyking 11:08, 20 October 2005 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in an undeletion request). No further edits should be made to this page.