Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Historical pederastic couples

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was Keep. KrakatoaKatie 08:10, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Historical pederastic couples

1. This is unimportant and unencyclopedic.
2. there are no Sources, but al lot of Rumours. Again - not encyclopedic.
3. a lot of the historical couples are not real couples, for instance in ancient literature it was normal to say obout famous men something of this kind to stigmate them.
4. the most of them are in modern history rejected or in question. But here there are as truth.
5. in this way this article van not be longer here at Wikipedia. It's pure horror.
6. sorry, my english is not the best (but enough to realize, that the article ist very, very bad). Kenwilliams 19:48, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

• Speedy keep. It is current Wikipedia practice to feature articles grouping like events, situations and individuals. That the article is unimportant to Kenwilliams does not mean it is unimportant to others. That it is poorly sourced, I concede. This, like many other Wikipedia articles could benefit from a thorough documentation effort. But are we now going to delete all insufficiently sourced articles?! That the historical couples are not "real couples" is an extreme and unsupported contention, as well as an indefensible generalization. As for this being said of some people in order to stigmatize them, perhaps, but we will really have to examine each case in question - that is no reason to throw the whole lot into the dustbin. And why assume that this was universally stigmatizing?! That is a pov contention. In many cases, it was seen as praiseworthy. Modern history examples in question?! Such as? What this article needs is a group of interested editors to subject it to the healthy dialectic of Wikipedia editing, pruning and adding as consensus develops, instead of being swept under this or that ideological rug. Haiduc 22:01, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

For an historican like me it's hard to read such rubbish like this article. Ofcourse they are stigmatized. Maybe you can imagine - not at all times in history it was OK to be gay. Such rumours were used to stigmate people. An other problem I forget - here the authors mixed gay and pererastic "couples". The wohle article from the beginning to the end is pure horror. But I belive the article will be keeped. The en:WP seems to the other WP's like a dustbin/ashcan. Such POV-articles without sources, without using modern literature will keep. And actually neraly the only argument for keeping is the reproach, I'm a POV-warrior. It's funny. But I have nothing against such a list (is not important who with who - but at the end it's also not bad) - but this list is to delete. Thers nothing more to say. Kenwilliams 10:44, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

I am sorry, but your vehemence renders your criticism suspect. It is not our concern whether accusations of sodomy stigmatized or not their targets. These people often went to their death, together with their lovers - are we expected to believe that they were all framed and drawn up on false charges?! And then you say that we mixed gay and pederastic couples. But does that statement not refute your contention - that these were indeed pederastic couples? As for the alleged mix, will you now argue that only those who bedded young adolescents were pederasts, and those who loved older adolescents were not? What are you basing yourself on for making your distinction? Sources? You are right, but that was discussed already. Haiduc 12:12, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

• Keep.

1. This is unimportant and unencyclopedic.

Let the readers decide what they find "unimportant" and what not. If I remember it correctly, nobody else has complained before that it would be unimportant. And it isn't more "unencyclopedic" than articles about movie stars.

2. there are no Sources, but al lot of Rumours. Again - not encyclopedic.

There are in fact some sources and there will be much more in the future. It's still in the making.

3. a lot of the historical couples are not real couples, for instance in ancient literature it was normal to say obout famous men something of this kind to stigmate them.

"A lot"? Name them all, please. I think you can say this about Caesar (whom I never really wanted to be in the list), but I don't see so many others, who are mainly there, because somebody wanted to stigmate them.

4. the most of them are in modern history rejected or in question. But here there are as truth.

That sounds as if you did a lot of research, which I don't believe you did, sorry. Who "is rejected", for example?

5. in this way this article van not be longer here at Wikipedia. It's pure horror.

It will look alright without the romantic sounding language (we should replace all this "fell in love" stuff) and more sources. Oder nicht? :-) Fulcher 15:04, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

For Information: Fulcher (I think he's the blocked User Roman Czybora) tries to relativate and romantisize Sexuality with Children in the german Wikipedia. Hes absolutely not trustworthy. Kenwilliams 20:49, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

Well, what "you think" is absolutely wrong. I'm NOT Roman Czybora. Verstanden? Ich bin's nicht! And where did I "relativate and romantisize Sexuality with Children in the german Wikipedia"? Hm? }:^( Fulcher 16:41, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Naja, 'n typischer Ossi halt... Fulcher 16:50, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

• • I do not know who Fulcher is and I do not care. This is not a place for personal attacks. Haiduc 23:37, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

• • • Roman Czyborra 03:13, 8 November 2006 (UTC): I can assure you that Fulcher is from Munich while I am from Berlin. Kenwilliams should cool down and apologize to Fulcher. I was not blocked for being untrustworthy but for taking legal action.

• It should be remarked that Kenwiliams is the German user Marcus Cyron who wrote the featured articles de:Prostitution in der Antike (prostitution in antiquity) and de:Antinoos — for both articles he had to do a lot of research about sexuality in antiquity. Delete, he's right. --Tolanor 21:16, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

• • If so, that's disappointing - he should know better. As for the article, it would be a lot wiser to examine questionable examples that to try to paint the whole lot as of no interest - there are plenty of works examining sexual relations in history disproving the contention that such matters are "unimportant." Haiduc 23:37, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

Unimportant is only one point of some. Interesting, that the Keepers try to reduct it to this point. I'm a studied historian (I know, this is in the en:Wiki a bad point, people who are experts are not welcome), with special subject (ancient) culture history. I know, how ta handle the sources. The author of the article seems to have a problem with this. And to the personal attacks: I think it's interesting, why people are for keeping the article. Instead to cry, the main author should work on the list - for keeping the List must be free from any rumours - only couples without any doubt could be list there. And there are much less than on the list. And all must be referenced with serious sources. In my opinion there should be a new start without the actuel main author - he seems to be a POV-pusher in his own way. Kenwilliams 14:48, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

• • The tone of your discourse speaks louder than your claim of being a historian. Likewise your disparagement of the English language version. Is this how you go about editing your version of the wikipedia, with personal attacks and denigration of others?! Sounds like a pretty unpleasant environment. At any rate, despite your odd attempt to disqualify me from further editing, allow me to say that you would be welcome to contribute to the article, as you already have. Then perhaps we can hash out who should and who should not be featured, rather than engaging in pointless diatribe. Haiduc 23:15, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

• Keep useful and documented; it could be improved (as could nearly all articles) and we should focus on that rather than delete. Carlossuarez46 18:54, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
• Delete Definition of pederasty seems to wobble between chaste relationship and a physical one. Many of the pairings are unverifiable and subjective. Inclusion of living persons violates WP:BLP unless they acknowledge it or there are other verifiable proofs such as legal proceedings, i.e. conviction of the older person.Edison 20:04, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

• • There is no "wobble." Pederasty can be either chaste or sexual, this is well known by anyopne who has studied the various historical forms of the practice, and is discussed in the literature. The rest of the criticisms are unanswerable for being too vague. Haiduc 01:16, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

• Keep To call something "unimportant" (as did kenwilliams) is completely POV, so to that extent, the opinion doesn't matter in the least. I completely agree that sourcing and references should be improved, but the key aspect of an encyclopedia is that it should be full of as many topics as is possible. Let the reader decide what is or is not important to them. vertium 19:17, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

You don't understand, what I#ve said. And I think you won't understand. Kenwilliams 14:48, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

• Keep, factual, citable and very "important." JayW 20:00, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

How small must a mind be, to say it would be important what a people like? I know here it's important if a person ist gay or bisexual. But normally people don't define themsolve about sexuality. Only if they are ill in some way. One of the biggest mistakes here at the en:Wiki is, that's more important what a people "is", than what he does. I know from the beginning this article will be keeped. Kenwilliams 14:48, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

You're right - your English is really bad. Fulcher 15:49, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.