Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Hellenic Genocide

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This page is an archive of the discussion about the proposed deletion of the article below. This page is no longer live. Further comments should be made on the article's talk page rather than here so that this page is preserved as an historic record.
The result of the debate was RESULT: DELETED

[edit] Hellenic Genocide

note that similarly-titled Hellenic Holocaust redirects to Greco-Turkish relations

Why is this article still here? There are 16 legitimate registered votes for delete against 5 legitimate registered keeps. --E.A 17:29, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)

  • That's because there wasn't an full article or someone deleted it. Now there is so the redirect now goes to Hellenic Genocide which is specific to the topic while Greco-Turkish relations is a general heading. There is no mention of the Pogroms in Istanbul/Constantinople or the ethnic cleansing of the islands of Imbros or Tenedos nor the massacres of the Ottomans, nor are there detialed facts and figures or dates which are on the Hellenic Genocide page. --Argyrosargyrou 13:27, 29 May 2005 (UTC)
the previous info about copyvio has been removed b/c the copyvio has been resolved Feco 02:57, 31 May 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Vote to Delete

{sign your vote with ~~~~}

  • Delete Greeks still do not understand that it was a WAR, and this is what happens in a war: people die. An equal amount of Turks were massacered by Greeks. They have to get over it, Venizelos did! Why disrespect your own rulers, just to hurt Turk's prestige in world?
  • DeletePOV rant by a Greek nationalist who is currently under a 24 hour block for his 3RR on Cyprus dispute.

Delete this mess. Why nobody talks about the Turkish casualties. Turks were in the majority in most of the cities which are now in Greece. Where did they go? Did they vanish suddenly! No, the evil Greeks killed them and now playin the victim. RickK 23:32, May 23, 2005 (UTC)

  • Delete POV rant. Revolución 23:51, 23 May 2005 (UTC)
  • Delete as per User:RickK. DoubleBlue (Talk) 01:27, 24 May 2005 (UTC)
  • Delete Insulting, vulgar and a blatant attempt to politicise Wikipedia --E.A 16:12, 26 May 2005 (UTC)
  • Delete POV rant. carmeld1 23:12, 26 May 2005 (UTC)
  • Delete After the Greeks were defeated, Venizelos and Ataturk made an agreement to exchange the populations. Around a million Greek left Anatolia while around 400.000 Turks left Greece. That is what happened to missing Greek population. Greeks were defeated in the war and Lausanne Treaty is the end. What is Hellenic Genocide??? Hypocricy! Unbelievably insulting and subjective...POV rant -Cansın 3.20, 27 May 2005 (UTC)
  • Delete POV rant. feyz 4:00, 27 May 2005 (UTC)
  • Delete Too POV to be salvaged. Xcali 05:27, 27 May 2005 (UTC)
  • Delete. Sholtar 14:50, May 27, 2005 (UTC)
  • Delete. This is nothing more than an anti-Turkish rant - there was an article once about the Asia Minor catastrophe... ? - Snchduer 21:54, 28 May 2005 (UTC)
  • Delete. There is a huge anti-Turkish campaign going on in this encyclopedia with loads of sockpuppets.Yuber(talk) 02:15, 29 May 2005 (UTC)
  • Delete. I'm changing my vote from keep to delete. I would've liked to see the article kept and improved upon (per my original keep vote below), but the course of debate in the entire Greek/Turkey/Cyprus family of articles indicates that the 'owners' of the articles are not receptive to anyone else's contribution. Delete the mess and start again. Feco 14:11, 29 May 2005 (UTC)
  • Delete. Discussions on Wikipedia are supposed to be debates where views can be aired, not where name-calling and deleting are the rule. When people even criticize for taking the edge off posts in order to comply with wikipedia's rules, then you know that their motives are against the spirit and the rule of this online encyclopedia. Expatkiwi(talk) 19:18, 29 May 2005
  • Delete due to 'authors' probably slanderous attacks on other Wikipedians, over-POV'ness, probably copyvio, possibly voting sockpuppetry, and duplication.--Kiand 20:49, 29 May 2005 (UTC)
  • Delete. There's a possible article here, but it's not this one, and it's not clear that it could be written (or, rather, that it would stay in an acceptable form) at the moment. Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 10:18, 30 May 2005 (UTC)
  • Delete. Hopelessly POV. -- ChrisO 07:28, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Vote to Keep:

  • keep-My family lost many members, the Turkish Regular army stubbed and burned pregnant woman and kids, my Grandmother survived with couple knife wounds played dead jumped through a window and headed to the mountains and stayed there 'till the exchange of population.

My Grandfathers side had the same fate.

Were Greeks prosecuted because religion and race? Absolutely, Elias Konstantin

The Resolutions speak for themselves. Keep the page.

  • Keep - Most interesting article with true facts that seem to "hurt" some Turkish people. It is about time for the Turkish authorities to accept the ATTROCITIES which they have carried out during the last century against the Armenians, Greeks and Kurds!


  • Keep Count my vote to keep this page. The Greek Genocide committed by the Turks has been officially recognized by Greece and the States of New York, New Jersey, South California and Georgia. The historical facts proving the Genocide are testified by the books of two US diplomats, Ambassador Morgentau and Consul Horton.
Argyrosargyrou 22:01, 30 May 2005 (UTC) - Deleted personal attack. RickK 22:16, May 30, 2005 (UTC)
  • Keep This page should be kept. (Revision as of 14:18, 26 May 2005 134.58.253.113)
  • Keep Excellent and accurate work! Well done! I vote to keep this page (Revision as of 10:38, 26 May 2005 212.205.252.139 )
  • Keep I also vote to keep this page. (Revision as of 10:53, 26 May 2005 24.61.109.180)
  • Keep. There is substantial evidence that the genocides commited by the Turks in the years between 1908 and 1923 (Armenian, Hellenic, Assyrian and others) are a fact, involving the extermination and deportation of millions. The fact that after decades of a fruitless denial, Turkey still cannot come to grips with these facts, does not make it reasonable not to present them or consider them disputable. A genocide does not have to be recognised by its perpetrators to actually be a genocide.--Spryom 12:19, 26 May 2005 (UTC)
    • User's second edit to Wikipedia. RickK 20:27, May 27, 2005 (UTC)
    • Your entry is inaccurate, but above all irrelevant. It could have been my 1st or 1.000.000th edit, the argument remains that the page describes facts and should be kept.--Spryom 15:57, 31 May 2005 (UTC)
  • Keep--. History of genocide must not be suppressed to serve political expediency. Argyrosargyrou 12:40, 26 May 2005 (UTC)
    • Argyrosargyrou, rallying all of your friends/sock puppets to vote keep won't do a bit of good if they don't have established Wikipedia accounts. RickK 20:27, May 27, 2005 (UTC)
  • Keep Karol 13:16, May 26, 2005 (UTC)
    • Please explain your vote. RickK 20:27, May 27, 2005 (UTC)
  • Keep The articles of US and British newspapers of that period confirm the genocide that took place in Minor Asia and resulted to the extermination of all non christians. Please keep this page. Mark Tomson. USA
  • Keep This is an excellent factual contribution providing information on a Gewnocide that has been hidden for too long because it is denied by the perpetrators, the Turks, who now are trying to remove it. It is a fact that probably a minimum of 1 million Greeks were murdered in a systematic act of genocide, and that fact should never be forgotten. In order to check facts, one only has to check census figures collected by the Ottoma\n Empire for minirities. Only the heads of households were counted. Where are those hundreds of thousands of heads of households now? Where are their families? Denying the facts of genocide permits genocide to be committed. This Genocide is a fact, as was the Genocide of the Armenians, now recognised by more countries each year, in spite of the insistance by Turkey that it never happened. To not have this article would be to politicise Wikipedia. For an introduction to this subject read a book written by a contemporary witness, US Ambassador Henry Morgenthau, read 'The Blight of Asia', available to read online and in bookstores.
  • Keep The turks are responsible for the Armenian, Greek and Syrian Genocide and the EU is starting to press forward with this issue.. it seems that turkish propaganda is playing a detremental role. Until this very day churches are confiscated. By deleting this article, means that were are giving in to barbarism and lies. Hopefully this is not what wikipedia is about.
  • Keep I think this is a well written article. The Turks should come to terms with their own history and stop being stubborn about it. Germany is a great example of a country that has repented for their sins. The European Union are pressing Turkey for this issue and also to have relations with Armenia. What are Turks afraid of anyway, true free ethnic equality?
  • Weak Keep The topic is noteworthy in spite of the obvious problems with the current content. Whether the article content is accurate or POV should not drive the deletion decision. Those can be fixed via editing and fact checking. The debate surrounding the historical facts is relevant and there is content available to fix this article's content. Having an article about this topic is appropriate. My only reservations are about the chances of this article successfully reaching NPOV status. Due to the controversial nature of the subject matter I expect that will be a challenge. Tobycat 20:56, 27 May 2005 (UTC)
  • Keep. (Note that I am not a sockpuppet). I posted a blurb to the article's talk page before it was VfD'ed, but I'll post again here. The article as it stands now is a POV rant with major factual inaccuracies/distortions. I had suggested renaming to a less-inflammatory title or merging with other articles, but facts that I can find are scattered through several other Greek/Greece/Turkey/Turkish articles. It is a historical fact that Greek people were forcibly removed from Turkey, just like Turks were forcibly removed from Greece, Armenians from Turkey, etc. Pretty much every ethinc/national group in that region has been on the top and the bottom of the hierarchy at one time or another. All of these events are pretty important, if little-known, historical facts (read anything about the region by Robert D. Kaplan for some great predictions). They helped lead to WWI and WWII... may lead to WWIII. The entire family of articles about Balkan history needs a ton of work, but I don't know nearly enough to do anything. Sadly, most of the people who do know enough seem to be from the region, so they bring a strong POV to editing. Feco 22:20, 27 May 2005 (UTC) (changed my vote to delete) Feco 14:12, 29 May 2005 (UTC)
  • Keep, but preferably merge parts. For example, the section on Cyprus should be merged with Turkish Cypriot Genocide and moved to some neutral article title discussing allegations of both sides. --Delirium 00:23, May 31, 2005 (UTC)
  • Keep The article should be keeped: it presents some kind of actual historic information which does not exist in other places of Wikipedia. Behaviour of both sides involved into the discussion should not be treated as reason to delete information, see Wikipedia:Guide_to_Votes_for_deletion. I think the article simply needs to be cleared up and extended with references to information sources. --Gvorl 13:10, 31 May 2005 (UTC)
  • Keep The truth must be told! Read "the Blight of Asia" by George Horton, why would he lie?

[edit] Additional Comments:

Could do with expanding, to cover Crusader genocide, British Imperialist genocide, Christian genocide (of all faiths other than their own, and all pagans), and probably the genocide committed by polar bears on seals. Entire Wiki on its own, here. --Simon Cursitor 07:06, 24 May 2005 (UTC)

Learn a little bit about Turkey and Turks...Most of the people living in Turkey who identify themselves as Turk are not ethnically Turkish. How anybody claim that Turks in Turkey are ethnically Turk? We are so mixed up. Armenian/Greek/Kurd/Arab/Turk/Caucasian...etc.They mixed up for centuries...The states in Anatolia during the 13th and 14th century were Byzantinum, basically Christian, then most of them converted to Islam due to the political and business reasons...Don't you see: We are same except religion...I travelled extensively in Greece, I love Greece and Greek people..I never had any bad experience in Greece, and when I shut my ears, everybody look like the people you can run accross anywhere in Turkey. Leave this hatred propaganda...We fought because of religion difference, the war ended 90 years ago, and Greek army was defeated. Leave it behind...Come and see Turkey, have Turkish friends...enjoy peace! -Cansın 19.08, 27 May 2005 (UTC)

  • Dear Cansin, there is no hatred propaganda. Greece and Turkey will be neighbouring forever. It would be a major step towards peace though, to help Turkey stop the denial approach of history and recognise the genocides. History always speaks about the past. Leaving it behind is forgetting history, which is not the right choice. In what concerns your references to Byzantium and Anatolia, well, this is your personal pov and I do not agree. The Ottomans were quite tolerant with other religions and ethnic tribes. The Young Turks however, were not tolerant. 20th century, that's when Anatolia stopped being a "mixed up" (multiethnic I would describe it) area.--Spryom 07:40, 30 May 2005 (UTC)

Removed double vote by: 24.61.109.180

I find it suspicious that only 3 out of the 9 Keeps are registered users, and that the anonymous contributors have only ever voted on this article and done nothing else.

Argyrosargyrou using multiple IP's is vandalism. --E.A 14:43, 27 May 2005 (UTC)

I am not using multiple IP's --Argyrosargyrou 15:36, 27 May 2005 (UTC) -- deleted personal attack RickK 20:27, May 27, 2005 (UTC)

Is manipulating the vote page an offense in wikipedia (please, Agryro, explain your edits here) - Agryro's edits? If sb does not have an account on wikipedia, will their vote be counted? Will it be counted if they sign with their IP only? - Snchduer 13:06, 29 May 2005 (UTC)

  • People with accounts forgot to sign it as well and it was not me that started editing this page and listing peoples votes under headings, it was E.A who also removed peoples comments which he did not agree with, which I restored. Someone needs to rewrite the script for vote pages so it automatically includes username of IP address and does not allow multiple voting or comments to be deleted. People who are not members are equally entitled to vote since they are the ones searching for information and as shown above they want this information to stay. --Argyrosargyrou 13:41, 29 May 2005 (UTC)
Don't make us look for what you allege, provide diffs! Also, it would be nice to put on the top of every vote page a hint on how to sign your vote, and when votes will not be considered. - Snchduer 13:48, 29 May 2005 (UTC)
  • I provided the information and then Feco went an removed it. Here it is agian complet with IP addresses and user names of the people who forgot to sign. --Argyrosargyrou 10:41, 30 May 2005 (UTC)
    • removed what?!?! What exactly did I remove? Are you referring to when I changed my vote from keep to delete? I notice my old keep vote somehow made it onto your list below... I marked it with a strike to indicate that I no longer vote keep. Feco 17:36, 31 May 2005 (UTC)

Count my vote to keep this page. The Greek Genocide committed by the Turks has been officially recognized by Greece and the States of New York, New Jersey, South California and Georgia. The historical facts proving the Genocide are testified by the books of two US diplomats, Ambassador Morgentau and Consul Horton. (Revision as of 11:18, 27 May 2005 81.240.248.162)

Keep This page should be kept. (Revision as of 21:27, 27 May 2005 Dionis) Keep This page should be kept. (Revision as of 14:18, 26 May 2005 134.58.253.113) Keep Excellent and accurate work! Well done! I vote to keep this page (Revision as of 10:38, 26 May 2005 212.205.252.139 ) Keep I also vote to keep this page. (Revision as of 10:53, 26 May 2005 24.61.109.180) Count my vote to keep this page. The area where Turkey is now was full of Greeks. Now there are just a handful. The number of those that made it out of that area is only a fraction to the number that were once in that area. What happened to the missing? (Revision as of 13:14, 26 May 2005 24.61.109.180) Keep. There is substantial evidence that the genocides commited by the Turks in the years between 1908 and 1923 (Armenian, Hellenic, Assyrian and others) are a fact, involving the extermination and deportation of millions. The fact that after decades of a fruitless denial, Turkey still cannot come to grips with these facts, does not make it reasonable not to present them or consider them disputable. A genocide does not have to be recognised by its perpetrators to actually be a genocide.--Spryom 12:19, 26 May 2005 (UTC) User's second edit to Wikipedia. RickK 20:27, May 27, 2005 (UTC) Keep--. History of genocide must not be suppressed to serve political expediency. Argyrosargyrou 12:40, 26 May 2005 (UTC) Argyrosargyrou, rallying all of your friends/sock puppets to vote keep won't do a bit of good if they don't have established Wikipedia accounts. RickK 20:27, May 27, 2005 (UTC) Keep Karol 13:16, May 26, 2005 (UTC) Please explain your vote. RickK 20:27, May 27, 2005 (UTC) Keep The articles of US and British newspapers of that period confirm the genocide that took place in Minor Asia and resulted to the extermination of all non christians. Please keep this page. Mark Tomson. USA (Revision as of 21:19, 26 May 2005 212.70.194.23) Keep This is an excellent factual contribution providing information on a Gewnocide that has been hidden for too long because it is denied by the perpetrators, the Turks, who now are trying to remove it. It is a fact that probably a minimum of 1 million Greeks were murdered in a systematic act of genocide, and that fact should never be forgotten. In order to check facts, one only has to check census figures collected by the Ottoma\n Empire for minirities. Only the heads of households were counted. Where are those hundreds of thousands of heads of households now? Where are their families? Denying the facts of genocide permits genocide to be committed. This Genocide is a fact, as was the Genocide of the Armenians, now recognised by more countries each year, in spite of the insistance by Turkey that it never happened. To not have this article would be to politicise Wikipedia. For an introduction to this subject read a book written by a contemporary witness, US Ambassador Henry Morgenthau, read 'The Blight of Asia', available to read online and in bookstores. (Revision as of 22:09, 26 May 2005 AnnaL) Keep The turks are responsible for the Armenian, Greek and Syrian Genocide and the EU is starting to press forward with this issue.. it seems that turkish propaganda is playing a detremental role. Until this very day churches are confiscated. By deleting this article, means that were are giving in to barbarism and lies. Hopefully this is not what wikipedia is about. (Revision as of 10:41, 27 May 2005 62.252.32.14) Keep I think this is a well written article. The Turks should come to terms with their own history and stop being stubborn about it. Germany is a great example of a country that has repented for their sins. The European Union are pressing Turkey for this issue and also to have relations with Armenia. What are Turks afraid of anyway, true free ethnic equality? (Revision as of 20:09, 27 May 2005 138.5.97.153) Weak Keep The topic is noteworthy in spite of the obvious problems with the current content. Whether the article content is accurate or POV should not drive the deletion decision. Those can be fixed via editing and fact checking. The debate surrounding the historical facts is relevant and there is content available to fix this article's content. Having an article about this topic is appropriate. My only reservations are about the chances of this article successfully reaching NPOV status. Due to the controversial nature of the subject matter I expect that will be a challenge. Tobycat 20:56, 27 May 2005 (UTC) Keep. (Note that I am not a sockpuppet). I posted a blurb to the article's talk page before it was VfD'ed, but I'll post again here. The article as it stands now is a POV rant with major factual inaccuracies/distortions. I had suggested renaming to a less-inflammatory title or merging with other articles, but facts that I can find are scattered through several other Greek/Greece/Turkey/Turkish articles. It is a historical fact that Greek people were forcibly removed from Turkey, just like Turks were forcibly removed from Greece, Armenians from Turkey, etc. Pretty much every ethinc/national group in that region has been on the top and the bottom of the hierarchy at one time or another. All of these events are pretty important, if little-known, historical facts (read anything about the region by Robert D. Kaplan for some great predictions). They helped lead to WWI and WWII... may lead to WWIII. The entire family of articles about Balkan history needs a ton of work, but I don't know nearly enough to do anything. Sadly, most of the people who do know enough seem to be from the region, so they bring a strong POV to editing. Feco 22:20, 27 May 2005 (UTC) (changed my vote to delete) Feco 17:36, 31 May 2005 (UTC)


The anonymous votes were removed becaused they removed the 'deletes':

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3AVotes_for_deletion%2FHellenic_Genocide&diff=14258981&oldid=14258649

And Argyrosargyrou made no attempt to reinsate the deletes, but instead contributed to the vandalised version:

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3AVotes_for_deletion%2FHellenic_Genocide&diff=14262531&oldid=14258649

Which is why i removed all the anonymous one time contributors, and left only registered Wikipedia votes, which even now account for no more than 4 Keeps:

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3AVotes_for_deletion%2FHellenic_Genocide&diff=14269403&oldid=14268391 --E.A 14:03, 29 May 2005 (UTC)

  • You are the one that Vandalised this page not me. See, you have already admitted to it.--Argyrosargyrou 14:13, 29 May 2005 (UTC)
For the last time: provide proof! Checking the changes E.A made, I do not find anything wrong. If you do, please provide the proof, instead of posting unbased allegations. - Snchduer 14:24, 29 May 2005 (UTC)
This page is now preserved as an archive of the debate and, like some other VfD subpages, is no longer 'live'. Subsequent comments on the issue, the deletion, or the decision-making process should be placed on the relevant 'live' pages. Please do not edit this page.