Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Hellenic Empire

This page is an archive of the discussion about the proposed deletion of the article below. This page is no longer live. Further comments should be made on the article's talk page rather than here so that this page is preserved as an historic record.
The result of the debate was redirect to Hellenism.  Grue  17:46, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Hellenic Empire

As this article currently stands, it is a POV account of Byzantine Empire. While Google returns some examples of this phrase as an alternative name for the Byzantine Empire, the pages that use it are not in fluent English & fail to prove this term has any significant usage; further, other Google results include one to an Omega-Gear member (first hit) & a couple of others referring to different periods of ancient history, arguing that at best this should be converted to a disambiguation page. No articles link to it. -- llywrch 17:20, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)

• Hmph, well I've just been reading a book about the archaelogical search for evidence for any truth behind the legend of the Trojan War, and in it it says the idea of Hellenism didn't emerge until the fifteenth century - before that, Greek monks habitually crossed themselves at Plato's name, that 'Hellenic Satan'. Hellenism meant pagan, you see. Of course, it never happened because the Turks took Constantinople in 1453, Athens in 1456 and Morea in 1460. Given that the Byzantines were actively hostile to Pagan Hellenism, then, this doesn't appear to be an appropriate term to use. Average Earthman 18:15, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)

????? KEEP THIS ARTICLE! I am the original editor. I Have no idea what provoked you to consider this for deletion. " You reasoning suggests there is a anglo-centric nature of the internet, it is not my problem if you cant find a decent link. Despite this little upset I would like help in getting maps showing the Empire. Other than that this article should link to Ottoman, Roman, Byzantine, nad perhaps Late Byzantine.

The reason it was called Hellenic is because the Greeks felt that Hellenic was no longer a term for Pagan or atleast the roots of Paganism and Hellenism were lost. They felt proud to be still Hellenes and as such reverted in teh late 1200 to calling themselves as Greeks or Hellenes. There should be no argument about their CHristianity at this stage in history, afterall they stood alone in 1453 against the Wave of Ottoman Turks and the Islamic Flood that would take the rest of Europe. Its not included in any other topic because you deleted its occurance from said topic please do not do that.

Because the term is a historical term ie like Byzantine is a historical term it should not be expanded much because it is really the official Roman Empire. That is why there should be a links from Roman EMpire to this phrase Hellenic Empire 1204AD if we consider the 4th crusade as the point where it was only Greece and Anatolia making up the Roman Empire. However, I put it a few years ahead for several and many other reasons it is up to debate.

Please sign your comments in the future. Not only is this simple to do, it will also give your comments credibility. -- llywrch 22:54, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)

• Delete. Seems to be redundant with Byzantium, and the name doesn't seem to be in widespread-enough usage to warrent a redirect. --Carnildo 21:38, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)
• Delete. This is a non-mainstream POV fork of the Byzantium article. Stbalbach 15:02, 12 Jun 2005 (UTC)
• Well, I haven't voted yet, I just stated that I wasn't aware, from what I know of the history of that time, that what the West now calls the Byzantine Empire was calling itself anything other than the Roman Empire (and don't bother telling us that the west had called it the Greek Empire, that was because they wanted to appropriate the title of Roman Empire for themselves). A Google for "Hellenic Empire" in .edu sites suggest that Western historians are more likely to consider that means Alexander's (ie. most of the mere 16 hits). I'm not sure what provoked the question about Christianity, the book I had at hand seemed to suggest they were devoutly Christian, hence their distaste for the pagan past of the area. But put bluntly, if this term is almost never used in the English language in the sense used here, why should Wikipedia start, unless there is some documented evidence that the people genuinely did refer to themselves as a Hellenic Empire? Average Earthman 22:29, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)

• I also haven't voted, but Hellenism refers to the period of around 232 BC - 50 BC, when Alexander the Great's empire disintegrated into the Ptolemies, Seleucids, Antiochans, and Macedonians. When I hear "Hellenic empire," I think immediately of redirect to hellenistic empire or Hellenism. Otherwise, what we have is "Greek-speaking empire," which is not really definitie enough to discuss in political terms. Geogre 02:21, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC)

• My college room-mate, a native Greek, alerted to the currency of this term in Greece. I'm sure a redirect is warranted, and a separate article may be, if a contributor can explain the special usage and meaning of the term to Hellenes. Xoloz 03:52, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Can you ask your roommate for some help with cites on this usage? I ask this not because I don't believe that this is the case, but I suspect this would be a useful POV to document. And because, unfortunately, all that the original author appears able to add to this is a repetition (with typos) that this is the only valid interpretation of the subject. -- llywrch 09:40, 12 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Well, a search of "Hellenic Empire of Byzantium" returns 23 hits -- great, not very helpful, although at least these few are known to refer to the so-called Eastern Roman Empire. Sadly, college was several years ago, so the room-mate is not immediately available. What is important here is that the Greeks, who call themselves Hellenes today, label whatever Empires they can "Hellenic" as an expression of their patriotism. I don't think they make the claim that Byzantium widely called itself "Hellenic," but it didn't widely call itself "Byzantine" either -- as suggested, the people thought of themselves as Rome of the East. However, present-day Greeks do call Byzantium the Hellenic Empire (if our ranting contributor establishes anything, it is this), and might search for such here. Until a native Greek (willing to sign his talk contributions) comes along with cites to expand "Hellenic Empire," I suggest a Disambigulation at Hellenic Empire that says that the term may refer to either the Empire of Alexander or the Empire of Byzantium. Sound reasonable? Xoloz 11:28, 12 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I completey agree Xoloz. The article as it stands doesn't really offer anything useful in its current form. It might even be worthwhile to put in a little note that 'Hellenic Empire' is what greeks refer to the late Byzantine Empire as. Masamax 22:42, 12 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Either deletion or a disambiguation is with me. As for a usable explantion of the Greek POV on this topic, I guess we'll just add it to that long list of wanted topics. -- llywrch 00:16, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)

As I mentioned it is an important time period different from Alexander the Greats "Hellenistic Empire". The Only place in former Greek lands in Europe that was not over-run by enemy forces was the location of Athens known as Hellas. During the ROman Empire this area of the Greek peninsula was called Hellas. In many historical accounts after the fourth crusade the term "Hellenes" starting to be used in reference to the area and to those last inhabitants of COnstantinople during the final siege 1453AD. The last emporer of the EMpire adressed his people as Greeks or Hellenes. So this is an important period in terms of cultural shift. So the term simply refers to either post fourth crusade 1204AD - 1453AD. Or it can also refer to when the empire simply consisted of Greece and Constantinople. It is a different period to the rest of Rome and should not really be included in the main topic of the Roman Empire even if it is infact the final stage or last existance of that empire.

• Rewrite or Delete. As I understant, this is a correct name for the times in which the Byzantine Empire was composed of Greek-only lands, as in ca. 1400. Furthermore, it is a translation from the Greek of the way the Greeks called the Bizantine Empire. Since this is not a dictionary, but an enciclopedia, it shuld be deleted, or at least completely rewritten.--Panairjdde 10:58, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)
• Keep, useful explanation belonging on a separate page in an encyclopedia. Kappa 07:49, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)
• Delete Sysin 20:56, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)

This page is now preserved as an archive of the debate and, like some other VfD subpages, is no longer 'live'. Subsequent comments on the issue, the deletion, or the decision-making process should be placed on the relevant 'live' pages. Please do not edit this page.