Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Heilkunst

This page is an archive of the discussion about the proposed deletion of the article below. This page is no longer live. Further comments should be made on the article's talk page rather than here so that this page is preserved as an historic record.
The result of the debate was - deleted - SimonP 01:02, May 22, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Heilkunst

• RETAINI have studied medicine, including homeopathy, intensively for over 10 years in an effort to address my son's chronic ills related to Autism. This article clearly explains why the full understanding of Hahnemann's whole system of medicine, which includes Homeopathy, has the capacity to broaden our scope and imagination for true remediation and a reliable systematic cure. Hahnemann himself was also subject to the emotional plague reaction where the establishment attempted to suppress true knowledge. My son demands a better way. (AAMc)

User:64.230.76.156 first contribution.Geni 13:03, 21 May 2005 (UTC)

It would appear that this article is aboput homeopathy which we already have an article about.Geni 15:44, 16 May 2005 (UTC)

• Retain - This is supposed to be an encyclopedia of information; it seems this author has provided information. Hahnemann called his major work "Organon Der Heilkunst". Therefore this needs to be a part of wikipedia, so that the information can be available to the readers of this encyclopedia.--Scottish lass 17:59, 20 May 2005 (UTC)

congratulations on your first edit to wikipedia.

• Delete this ranting vanity. -MarSch 16:19, 16 May 2005 (UTC)
• Delete I'd suggest merging with homeopathy but the author has already put most of this information there (replacing much of the original homeopathy article in the process). The author is apparently promoting an organization that he is associated with. [1]--Lee Hunter 16:22, 16 May 2005 (UTC)
• Delete I agree with all comments above. --capnez 16:27, 16 May 2005 (UTC)
• Delete The author is definitely promoting an organization, of which he is head. That which is called "Heilkunst" in the English-language world is taught at his school and his school alone. Here's its website. --Homeoinsider 21:34, May 16, 2005 (UTC)
• RETAIN I have read this article, and it provides useful information that shows clearly that Heilkunst is not part of homeopathy, but rather the other way around - which is fascinating. I've studied homeopathy 27 years and practiced for 18, and this is food for thought. This fulfils the mission of an encyclopedia, I think, in providing factual information and references/resources for readers to do further research. homeowiki--Homeowiki 23:49, 16 May 2005 (UTC)
• Retain- for reasons set out in comments below - rudiverspoor
• Please Do Not Delete This is not the same as homeopathy. Homeopathy is a part of the greater system of Heilkunst. Not the other way around. This has nothing to do with the argument about mainstreams acceptance of homeopathy or heilkunst. I appreciate having a definition. Heilkunst includes things like regimen eating the right food and homeopathy is about remedies. I found it informative and i wonder why more people do not know about it.[ marlasw1
  • Welcome to Wikipedia, Marlasw1! Because your only edits are to this page, I'm guessing that you're associated with Heilkunst and you already knew a lot about it. Most readers don't have that background, though. The article might survive if it's promptly re-written to show the nonspecialist that this subject is notable and that we need a separate article on Heilkunst. In its current form, the article is so jargon-laden and unencyclopedic that it's practically impenetrable to those of us who aren't steeped in homeopathic teachings. Another possibility would be to re-write it as an article about the Hahnemann Center for Heilkunst, if that institution can be shown to be notable -- although the article would still be obvious vanity (our term for an article authored by the subject or someone closely connected with the subject) and would attract some deletion votes on that ground. JamesMLane 01:19, 17 May 2005 (UTC)
• Delete. Btw German Wiki redirects this word to Medicine. Pavel Vozenilek 01:27, 17 May 2005 (UTC)
• Retain I have been studying material related to Homeopathy for over 12 years, and this article is one of the most lucid and acurate pieces of research that I have seen. The material is "unbiased" in the true sense of being actually based on the facts of what was written in the historical texts in question, and not on any current political or social bias.[JKorent]--69.156.80.121 01:05, 17 May 2005 (UTC)
• retain this article and stop the fear of traditional and other medicines place on humankind --64.230.7.162 01:18, 17 May 2005 (UTC)mousie
• RETAIN It seems to me that Wikipedia was created for everyone to share knowledge. Heilkunst and homeopathy are both worth some reading, which I have done. And I hope to continue doing in this wonderful medium. To remove an article for the presented reasons seems to me a simplistic solution. Let it be and evolve as most other topics have grown in Wikipedia. Certainly none of the calls for deletion have impressed me exceprt with the lack of courtesy and information - and I hope it is not the criteria on which Wikipedia bases such decisions. I for one, find heilkunst fascinating and a vast theme worth examining in more detail and I hope to be able to do so on this forum.(Z.Alex) (The foregoing was from User:24.114.164.108.)
• Delete and watch for sockpuppets. All the keep votes above me are by users who have only edited the article in question, this vfD page, and Bioresonance. ESkog 03:38, 17 May 2005 (UTC)
  • Not quite -- Rudiverspoor has made numerous edits to Homeopathy, notably to insert this same "Heilkunst" material (as the lead section, no less) and to remove valid data about skeptics. His multiple reverts of Homeopathy have not, however, been accompanied by any posts to Talk:Homeopathy. JamesMLane 04:34, 17 May 2005 (UTC)
• RETAIN. I have been studying and working with homeopathy for 10 years and after reading the article on Heilkunst have a better understanding of how Homeopathy fits into Hahnemann's greater system of healing. This gives me more alternatives to work with and as such is invaluable, it has increased my knowledge base, which after all is the function of an encyclopedia.--Thornton 09:57, 17 May 2005 (UTC)
• Bold textRETAIN. There is so much more to Samual Hahnemann's complete medical system - Heilkunst - of which homeopathy is only one part of it. Embrace the complete genius of Hahnemann and take it to a place beyond that which it is being kept at by some homeopaths who resist the change! Therefore Heilkunst should stand on its own in order for it to be recognized for what it is - a complete medical system including homeopathy, not the other way around. Congrats to those who boldly go beyond where anyone else has gone. I vote for keeping the lines clear between Heilkunst and Homeopathy and retaining this page. Sherlock. (The foregoing was from User:198.103.184.76.)
• Delete and Kill the socks. Radiant_* 14:38, May 17, 2005 (UTC)
• Homeopathy and Heilkunst are not the same thing at all. There are only 2 things that I see that link them. The first being that they both claim Hahnemann as the father of their art. This is true. The second being that homeopathy uses remedies that are potentised and are chosen on the law of similars. This is true for heilkunst as well. That is where the similarities end. From what I understand, that is the extent of homeopathy, and heilkunst goes further into the lifestyle of the individual, as was detailed below. It seems to me that homeopathy and heilkunst can be compared to pharmacology and family medicine. One is a part of the other, but it is not the same. - S. Guttman (The foregoing was from User:70.81.98.6.)
• Delete for self-promotion, pov fork, sockpuppetry, (and for making me use so much jargon). CDC (talk) 18:30, 17 May 2005 (UTC)

• Delete - This is just an attempt to write a POV article on homeopathy. A remarkable number of votes for retention coming from sockpuppets. Jooler 12:54, 18 May 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Comments

• An argument about mainstream medicine seems useless here. Mainstream changes constantly, so mainstream medicine is hardly mainstream. Homeopathy is a fact and it seems from what I understand that Heilkunst is also. I do not profess to be an expert, but the reasoning is sound based on my readings. -jowiley--Jowiley 00:14, 17 May 2005 (UTC)
• Mr. Lane has some amusing thoughts on homeopathy, which is part of the National Health Service in the United Kingdom, where there are homeopathic hospitals, where it is a fully recognized medical option for many countries in Europe, and in India. No form of homeopathy is accepted by mainstream medicine? Guess again. The first practitioners of homeopathy 200+ years ago were medically-trained physicians, and many MDs (and DOs, RNs, FNPs and PAs) STILL include homeopathic medicine in their practice. Check the membership directory of the National Center for Homeopathy in the US, for example (www.homeopathic.org). The first medical association in the US was homeopathic, then the AMA was formed (a few years later). The first medical association in Canada was homeopathic, then the CMA was formed. Please check your facts before you comment on things about which you obviously know nothing. --Homeowiki 23:55, 16 May 2005 (UTC)

• I have indeed been tireless (is that a fault?), but in correcting factual errors, removing attacks that have little room in such an article, which does keep the basic idea that homeopathy is not accepted by mainstream medicine - point noted, let's move on. Everything that I have written I can document, with sources and quotes. I referred people to the website where much of this is done, but I can do it in more detail if anyone wants. As for Heilkkunst being taught in only one place, that is indeed a true, if sad commentary, which shows that Hahnemann's legacy, which goes way beyond just homeopathy, has effectively been ignored, misunderstood or maligned by his supposed followers. At the start of any new issue, there will not be widespread acceptance. If homeopathy had just come on the scene today, I'm sure it would receive the same reception, such as that "homeoapthy is not an English word." Well, many of the words in the English language were not English at some point, but from Latin, Greek, German, French, etc.

The fact is that the "homeopathy page" is about homeopathy and Heilkunst is about Hahnemann's complete medical system, part of which is homeopathy. To claim that homeopathy encompasses Hahnemann's complete system and genius is patently false and demonstrably so. (Again, I would be happy to provide the evidence to any who cares to take the time to read). This is documented in the texts I have cited by Hahnemann for anyone to read, which few people do, I have found. Heilkunst is Hahnemann's term, as is "homeopathy" and is legitimate as a topic for an encylopedia. The issue should now be focussed on the content. There is much yet to add to Heilkunst and while much is already distinct from the homeopathy page (some overlap, yes), it will be very different. - Rudiverspoor

• This author has been tireless in attacking the Homeopathy article, to remove information (such as actual studies) that reflects badly on this quackery, and to re-insert his own idiosyncratic views. I might be amenable to having a separate article about "Heilkunst" if doing so would make it easier to preserve a genuine article on homeopathy. Of course, this separate article, if kept, would have to be suitably NPOV; it should state that no form of homeopathy is accepted by mainstream medicine, and that, even within homeopathy, "Heilkunst" is a small splinter practice (with an explanation of how it differs from other schools of homeopathic thought). JamesMLane 22:31, 16 May 2005 (UTC)

This page is now preserved as an archive of the debate and, like some other VfD subpages, is no longer 'live'. Subsequent comments on the issue, the deletion, or the decision-making process should be placed on the relevant 'live' pages. Please do not edit this page.