Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Heikki Talimaa + 15 others

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was Delete all (remaining). While there were a number of keep arguments, they mostly argued against the guidelines rather than how the players met them. — Coren ^(talk) 08:01, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] 16 14 Estonian footballers

Either youth or reserve players, who aren't even notable domestically BanRay 21:26, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

This discussion has been included in WikiProject Football's list of football (soccer) related deletions. BanRay 21:31, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Delete by nominator BanRay 21:31, 7 December 2007 (UTC)
Comment Random player from the list (Sergei Lepmets levadia site) played for JK Merkuur Tartu in 2004 Estonian League in 2004 so he is notable. Please recheck them all. Jhony | Talk 23:47, 7 December 2007 (UTC)
- Comment First of all, Estonian league isn't a fully pro league, so players aren't granted notability "by default" and secondly, Merkuur were an amateur team up until their merge with Tammeka in 2006. Just in case you decide to check the rest of them, here are some links you might find useful: Flora TVMK BanRay 10:39, 8 December 2007 (UTC)
  - Comment Thanks for the explanation and links, I didn't know that Estonian League is not fully professional, besides I don't know how to deal with notability in such cases. Jhony | Talk 11:46, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Comment I think common sense should prevail in such cases, if they aren't notable domestically, they aren't notable enough to have an article on here. BanRay 14:16, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Keep Gussev and Post, delete the rest as they stand. Playing in the highest league is not in itself notable, it has to be fully professional. But Gussev and Post are current or former national team players (not that playing internationally is automatically notable either, but decent countries like Estonia are. Non-notable national teams are countries like Bhutan, Swaziland etc). Punkmorten (talk) 13:35, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Comment Post has never played for the NT, link. As for Gussev, I'm going to remove him from the list now, good job Punkmorten. BanRay 14:06, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Comment I'm going to withdraw my nomination for Sander Post as well. He has recieved several international call-ups so, I guess, is notable enough. BanRay 14:16, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Comment Are notability granted for playing in the Champions League, UEFA Cup or Intertoto Cup? For example, Heikki Talimaa played for Flora in UEFA Cup: Flora 0 - 1 Vålerenga, Vålerenga 1 - 0 Flora. Jhony | Talk 15:16, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

That was in the qualifying rounds. BanRay 20:13, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Keep. I cannot understand how the top league of a UEFA-sponsored country (i.e. one with UEFA competition places - I am not saying the Liechtenstein top league is full of notable players), professional or otherwise, can be construed as not containing notable players. There is even a relatively notable source that rates the Estonian league ahead of the Swiss Super League, the Bulgarian league, the Polish league, the Danish league, Austria, MLS (I wouldn't doubt it). ugen64 (talk) 20:53, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
- You should get the guideline changed, then. It explicitly says professional league, and seeing as we have thousands upon thousands of footballers who already meet the criteria there's hardly a need to broaden the scope. Furthermore, but this is really beside the question, the notion that the Estonian league is "better" than the Austrian, Swiss, Danish etc leagues is just preposterous. And the Colombian league ranks above the Bundesliga? Yeeeah. Punkmorten (talk) 21:28, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
  - I have a question. Does the guideline require playing in a fully professional league? Or is it possible to be playing at the highest level within the country (the top level of FIFA sanctioned play)? Let's say for sake of argument that the Tunisian top league is not fully professional (I actually have no idea). This would make the Etoile Sahel first team non-notable unless they have played internationally, right? That makes no sense because the first squad of a club like that is certainly more notable that the first squad of a lower-level club like Darlington F.C. Perhaps the Estonian top league is not as well-supported or covered as the Tunisian league, but I wonder if the notability requirement is satisfied here because it is the highest level within Estonia? Best regards. Jogurney (talk) 03:41, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

As one of the best leagues in Africa, Tunisia is not a very good example, but I get your point. It must be a fully pro league, regardless of whether it's the top tier or not. I might be wrong here, but I think even being an international player isn't automatically notable, although I don't know where's that line between "notable" and "not notable" national teams, but then again, trying to define notability with a stack of strict rules isn't an easy task, so there will always be arguable cases. BanRay 23:25, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
- To be honest, the top division in Estonia is very very poor - the highest average attendance this season is 288 [1], putting it on a par with level 9 leagues in England. Even if it is a top division, I still believe the league is insufficiently important to merit player articles (and by continuing the argument for the articles, you'd end up with articles on hundreds of Sammarinese players, all of whom play in the top division of their country. пﮟოьεԻ 5 7 09:06, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

Attendance numbers have more to do with the popularity of sport in the country, they hardly reflect quality of the game. BanRay 10:24, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for the feedback. I hadn't realized the standard of football and attendance was so low in Estonia (although it stands to reason). The Tunisian league is of course at a higher standard, but it sounds like if someone cannot prove that it is "fully professional", the typical player in Tunisia is not-notable. That just doesn't seem right, but if it's the standard then we'll have to follow it. Best regards. Jogurney (talk) 19:18, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

Comment You miss the point Ugent. I'm not claiming that anybody who is playing in the Estonian league is not notable by definition, but, at the same time, I don't think that there are around 100 notable players in 5 professional and 5 amateur clubs in the meistriliiga. I personally know a lot of footballers from the "top" estonian sides as well as several national team players and if I tell you that those 14 lads are not notable, please believe me, they aren't, at least not yet. Half of them don't even play for their clubs, representing reserve sides instead and that's in a league where even being a regular doesn't mean you're notable, there goes the key word again lol. User:Walericaz, who, in fact, is a very decent contributor, but tends to do a lot of things "his way" instead of the "wikipedia way" created an entry for every single player who was registered with the top three estonian clubs for the 2007 season. If you seriously think that all of them are notable and need an article on here, well, that's your choice, after all there's no way to measure notability with a dipstick. I did make one obviously wrong (ironically I was also the one who added the international players category to Gussev's page prior to putting an AfD template on his page) and one arguable nomination in a hurry, but both are withdrawn now. I really suggest you to review your decision. Oh and that "notable source" really is a joke, putting it mildly. BanRay 22:58, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Keep - these bios are most of a team, it seems. Whether they've played or not (not really sure), we would probably have to delete a ton of other articles as well related to similar topics with roughly the same amount of notability. (By the way, they may—key word there— have potential for a larger built article.) jj137 ♠ Talk 23:57, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

I disagree that we would probably "have to delete a ton of other articles as well." Arguments like that in AFDs are usually quashed and sent to the bin of WP:OTHERSTUFF... the only thing other articles have to fear is if they don't have notability either. And if not, why are we afraid of deleting them?Epthorn (talk) 04:04, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
I'm sorry, but I fail to understand your logic there Jj137. What kind of precedent are you afraid of? And no, they will never be expanded, unless you do it of course.Half of them won't be playing football in two years. I'm starting to get a feeling that it's the ammount of articles that you people are afraid of. Do I really have to nominate all of them separately? Because I'm sure they will get deleted straight away if I do. BanRay 10:11, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

Delete. These are players of doubtful notability, therefore keeping articles in their current state is meaningless. Jhony | Talk 00:31, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
Delete Haven't played in a fully-profssional or significant enough league. пﮟოьεԻ 5 7 09:06, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
Delete Players fail current notability standard of playing in a "fully professional league" (which Estonia is not) and do not otherwise assert notability. Jogurney (talk) 19:19, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
Keep. Let's follow the spirit rather than the letter of the guideline. There is no fully professional league in Estonia, so surely the equivalent test for that country should be that the players play for some of the few professional clubs there. Phil Bridger (talk) 22:17, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
Keep. Can someone tell me the definition of fully professional league ? Which one is professional and which not ?Bartekos (talk) 12:42, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
- As I understand it, all clubs in the league should be professional. If some clubs have first team players that are semi-professional or amateur, the league wouldn't meet the standard. It does seem overly restrictive for some nations that have a top league with professional and semi-professional clubs, but apparently this is the current standard for notability. Best regards. Jogurney (talk) 03:10, 13 December 2007 (UTC)
  - As I know Flora Tallinn is a fully professional team and if it is , the players of this club are profis , so the articles should be kept Bartekos (talk) 14:10, 13 December 2007 (UTC)
Delete per WP:BIO unless someone is able to prove they do not fail the general guideline at WP:N, namely showing they have significant coverage in independent sources. --Angelo (talk) 14:38, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Heikki Talimaa + 15 others

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[edit] 16 14 Estonian footballers

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