Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Heavy metal in Islamic countries

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result of the debate was Keep. Deathphoenix ʕ 05:26, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Heavy metal in Islamic countries

Strong Delete The idea of having this article is a POV. This is as much riduclous as "Metal in Western countries" or "Metal in Christian countries" (How about having that on Asian Wikipedia?!). There is no shared 'Heavy metal' scene in 'Islamic countries'. Infact, the Metal bands in the 'Islamic countries' sing against Islam in most cases, which is why they are usually banned from playing live and their materials are only released in bootlegs. To have an article and put them together under the title of "Heavy metal in Islamic countries" is very much POV from a western perspective, and the whole idea is wrong. I had asked the contributer many times to forget about this idea but sadly he doesn't listen. - K a s h ^{Talk | email} 09:11, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

Considering heavy metal is "western" and sometimes controversial in western countries and "western" music is banned in Iran and certain bands are banned in Maylasia, Pakistan, etc. it is a worthy article. Arbusto 02:42, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

• Delete, this was put up in great faith as a compromise to include regional scenes (eg Iranian metal) which were not individually notable. However, I don't believe there are enough commonalities between playing metal in these countries beyond perhaps a lack of free speech, which is certainly not unique to Islamic countries. There is no combined Islamic scene for this kind of music, nor verifiable instances of media coverage (eg of problems / arrests / riots due to metal in these countries), and the topic is unnecessary. If it could be demonstrated that there are notable bands in these countries either playing "Islamic heavy metal" or suffering from problems directly related to Islam it would be a different matter. Deizio 09:25, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

Comment: You are correct to say that there is no common theme, I am not too sure about Metal in e.g. Pakistan, but the theme for Metal in Iran for example is about history of Iran. However to say they are not notable is a POV also. I had explained that it is of great important to Iranians, and as there was a list on that article with over 100 or so bands you can hardly deny it's existance, or it's importance.The articles just need expanding - K a s h ^{Talk | email} 09:33, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

The "list" in question was comprised entirely of external links to unnotable bands, none of whom had a WP article, and therefore flew in the face of WP:NOT, WP:MUSIC and WP:EL. The importance of this topic to Iranians, or anyone else, has not been verified. All of these factors add up to a massive failure of WP:V, an official policy. Deizio 13:05, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

Comment: The importance of rock music has already been "verified" and showed in the article here.-- - K a s h ^{Talk | email} 14:14, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

• keep. the intention I (creator) have here is the create a generic article about heavy metal in Islamic countries. Currently it is just some stuff that I gathered from other pages that was ill-placed or isn't worth an article by itself. Perhaps the article can be moved to something even more general such as heavy metal acceptance or something. Anyway the broad idea is the actually prevent articles about regional scenes, but cover general issues concerned to all such scenes into this article. However, some one knowledgeable about such issues should step in and write it into a decent album. One problem with most metal genre related articles is that they focus only on Western scenes, where freedom of speech and such is quite common - in countries like Iran, Indonesia, etc etc it is much harder to establish a metal scene. Any thoughts however for improvement are more than welcome. Moreover, I also feel that this is a bit of a personal strike of Kash against me for AFD'ing Iranian metal before and given his comments that I should leave his articles alone (and as such this step was too predictable). Consider his comments on my talk page as well as Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Metal. In this respect also like to point out that Iranian metal now redirects to a page with merely a copyvio statement. Also not that the creation of this article was considered on the Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Metal as well. Spearhead 10:04, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

Comment:Try to be WP:Civil for a change. I had discussed the matters many times with you, I told you to wait until we can expand the article however you decided not to. It doesn't matter what your intentions were. The point is that you shouldn't take such a POV for creating articles, and for reasons explained, this article is just POV. It's like having an article titled "Metal in Western countries" or "Metal in Christian countries" on an Asian wikipedia. -- - K a s h ^{Talk | email} 10:55, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

• Comment, I would ask Spearhead and Kash to refrain from continuing this debate here, as their views have been made time and again on the relevant talk pages, which interested editors will take note of when considering this matter. Further banter here will not do the credibility or good faith of either the article or AfD nomination any good. Deizio 13:05, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

Comment I put this up for deletion so I will comment if it is needed. However please do not make this any more than it is, AfD, there is nothing personal about it. -- - K a s h ^{Talk | email} 14:14, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

• Keep Unsure Delete as per Deiz and Kash. Much too vague, each country has its own situation and this article would just end up being an arbitrary list of countries whose government is more or less Islamic. It would be far more logical to have a section about heavy metal music in the articles of each individual country's music. I think that the purpose of this page was originally to group together regional scenes whose notability was questionable, but it doesn't look like a good compromise in the end. If we want to make an article on heavy metal acceptance, then that's a good idea; it's just that this title is ill-chosen and, from the comments of some editors, it might be perceived as offending for people from these countries. IronChris | (talk) 19:21, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

Comment: If it was a good compromise, I wouldn't be going through all this trouble for it. I think fans and the bands of Metal scene in those countries would be deeply offended to see it categorized as this. Their music is against Islam and their lyrics shout out it out clear that their country is not Islamic. There is just an Islamic rule in the country. -- - K a s h ^{Talk | email} 20:09, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

I changed my vote from keep to unsure, after reading the comment by 67.68.153.43 on the Talk:Heavy metal in Islamic countries#Delete (among other things). I understand that "Islamic countries" is an over-generalisation, and as Kash says, a rather western point of view. The situation of metal is different in different countries, as some have more or less free speech, a more or less authoritarian government, etc. The contents of the article could still be of use, but the title should be changed to not be so general.

The simplest thing to do is probably still to make a section about metal on the article for the music of each given country. IronChris | (talk) 18:07, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

• Delete: The material in this article covers two cases as it appears to me:

• Social acceptance of metal music
• Music in Islamic culture

So, there is hardly any need for this particular article which seems to be on the borderline of POV or invented topics. The material should be lumped under the above two broader categories. Also generalising Islamic countries may not be appropriate, since different definitions of the word "Islamic countries" may be used, such as, "country with Islamic constitution", "country with Muslim population majority", "country with significant Islamic cultural influence", etc. Also the reason for heavy metal music ban may depend on non-genre related reasons. For example, playing loud music (which may be even pop or hip-hop) is illegal in many Western countries as well. Then music, irrespective of genre, might be illegal in several countries. Worth pointing out, not all non-Islamic countries - whatever that means - have huge thriving metal scenes. Examples include countries in Africa, India, etc., where loud music is socially unaccepted. So, the given article is generalising based on incorrect parameters. -- urnonav 17:52, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

• Keep or Merge Over the last few months, articles on Iranian heavy metal, Pakistani black metal, and, I think, Malaysian black metal have been written (sorry I don't have the exact titles handy), and in each case been proposed for deletion due to questions about notability. While any one of these scenes might be non-notable, the fact that this genre seems to be gaining popularity across so many Islamic countries does amount to a phenomena and really should get its own article. Alternately, it could be merged into heavy metal or some article on music in the Islamic world. I also think that the heavy metal/black metal phenomena in Islamic countries does constitute a distinct sociological phenomenon, rather than merely the extension of an established Euroamerican musical genre into a different part of the world. Personally, I find it very interesting that a musical genre that, seemingly at least, so strongly rejects Islamic and Christian values is gaining popularity in much of the Islamic world. Is it a small symptom of a larger cultural rebellion against Islamic fundamentalism? I'd certainly like to know more. Peter G Werner 19:45, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

One more option I'd support, move the article to a title you find less objectionable. Peter G Werner 20:11, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

• Merge into separate articles about heavy metal in each country, and delete. "Islamic countries" is too vague (and loaded) a term - what's true in Malaysia is probably not true in, say, the U.A.E. --Hyperbole 07:30, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
• Weak Keep - it's a worthwhile topic. If the contributor intends to expand on it and make it a good article, I'd be inclined to give him the chance. If this were an abandoned article that hadn't been touched in 6 months, I'd say delete it in a heartbeat - and if it survives this AFD and comes back again as is, I'll switch to delete - but I'd rather err in this case on the side of letting him finish his work. BigDT 23:42, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

• Keep - Richardcavell 23:47, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
• Keep per Spearhead. Seems like an important cultural subject. Would like to see it expanded. -- JJay 00:56, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

Comment: "Cultural subject"?! What are you talking about?! -- - K a s h ^{Talk | email} 10:48, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

• I'm talking about this article. It seems self explanatory. The different reactions/approaches to music in different countries reflect culture. -- JJay 18:24, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

..Have you thought about addressing the reason of my nomination instead? Islamic countries do not share the same culture. Thats beside the point in any case, "Islamic countries" is a POV term! Do we have Metal in Christian countries? no? should we? does it reflect their culture?!! -- - K a s h ^{Talk | email} 10:47, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

I addressed your nom when I voted keep. I think the article is fine and should be expanded. If you disagree with the name then propose a different one. Otherwise, your other ideas, namely "Metal in Western countries" and "Metal in Christian countries", would both be fine with me if people want to work on those articles. -- JJay 21:22, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

What would be an interesting cultural subject would be to have an article that presents an overview of the social acceptance of heavy metal and its evolution in the past and that contrasts the different situations in various countries, some examples of which would be "Islamic countries". This would be 1) a more interesting article (the perception of heavy metal music and its followers has its importance elsewhere than just in "Islamic countries" and 2) it would be less offending. I agree with Kash that the government of a country does not reflect its culture. If someome then wants to make a detailed description of the heavy metal scene in a given country, they should do so on the article dedicated to that country's music. IronChris | (talk) 17:21, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

• Delete as a standalone article... per Deiz. It's just too much of a catch-all. Content could be boldy Merged to individual country articles (for example, if Pakistan has a Black Metal scene or if it is centered on on particular city/region, mention could be made there). Another good option would be to merge the content to Black Metal History section (and source it which is a deficiency with the current article).--Isotope23 12:35, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
• Delete per nom, and the title is extremely POV. Sounds like a shock site but instead it's a shock page. M1ss1ontomars2k4 22:43, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
• Keep valid topic.  Grue  09:55, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
• Keep per Werner. Move page to another title if need be. Arbusto 02:29, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
• Delete silly sub-notable topic KleenupKrew 03:24, 13 May 2006 (UTC)
• Either delete it or change the title. —Khoikhoi 19:10, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

Question: any suggestions for a better title? Spearhead 20:59, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

• Keep It's a valid and interesting topic. -- Karl Meier 21:31, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

Comment: Valid topic? Its original research, WP:POVFORK as well as the idea behind it being a POV. -- - K a s h ^{Talk | email} 21:37, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.