Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Hazarajat

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was Keep (closed by non-admin) as per consensus. RMHED (talk) 21:17, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Hazarajat

Hazarajat (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) – (View log)

Disputed as to whether this is a real geographic division or not (see talk page). I removed a speedy tag because I think this is sufficiently in dispute that a wider discussion would be worthwhile, but take no position myself. Accounting4Taste:talk 01:44, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

Since there was a tag from Wikipedia:WikiProject Afghanistan on the talk page, I notified that project on its talk page that this AfD was underway. There, like here, I take no position and advocate no point of view; I just want to see this thoroughly discussed before its fate is decided. Accounting4Taste:talk 01:49, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

• Keep: Needs sourcing in the article, but this Google search makes it seem as if it is a real place. According to this source there was a food shortage in the region of Hazarajat. - Rjd0060 (talk) 02:06, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
• Keep. Plenty of 3rd party sources acknowledge it as a real region, including 1911 Britannica [1] (and Britannica Online), HRW [2], and BBC News [3]. Article needs to be sourced. • Gene93k (talk) 05:38, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
• Keep. The Talk page claim that this isn't a real region was fairly clearly bad faith. The Hazara are tolerant Shia (for example, largely proud of the Buddhas of Bamiyan), while many of the other Afghan tribal groups are Sunni. They have never held a position of power in Afghanistan. This attempt to delete the article is a familiar example of ethnic rivalry on Wikipedia and should be given no credence. --Dhartung | Talk 07:09, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
• Keep Dhartung, as usual, is quite right. The Taliban tried to systematically destroy the Hazara during their brutal and benighted rule of Afganistan and there's no call for that sort of ethnic cleansing on Wikipedia. The 'food shortage' was used as a weapon by the Islamists, in the manner of Stalin's man made famine in the Ukraine. I hope this nomination is based in ignorance rather than political point scoring. Nick mallory (talk) 09:30, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
• Speedy delete. Please provide a trusted website, but PLEASE, DO NOT USE GOOGLE AS YOUR SOURCE OR REF. You people are bringing race into a geographical issue and forgetting the rules of Wikipedia. You are free to love Hazara people all you want but the fact is that there is no officially given name "Hazarajat" according to the Government of Afghanistan or any official historical documents of any nation. What you find on google is Hazara nationalistic blogs, forums and hate websites and do not use those as references. The creator of Hazarajat article on Wiki is a Hazara nationalistic, he is anti-Tajik and anti-Pashtun as well. I just asked for the article to be deleted because there is no such place called Hazarajat or Hazaraistan, and there never existed such place in the past neither. It is just a name made-up by the Hazara people to feel as they are natives of Central Afghanistan. Afghanistan is divided into 34 provinces and each province is further divided into many districts, the whole country comprises of about 400 districts total. You will not find Hazarajat anywhere in them, check Provinces of Afghanistan or Districts of Afghanistan. Hazaras are a very small minority in Afghanistan so of course they will stay that way and not have as much government positions as the major ethnic groups, such as Pashtuns and Tajiks. Not to mention that there are many other minorities, Uzbeks, Turkmen, Baloch, Aimaq, Nuristanis, Pashai, Qizilbash, etc. The reason why most Afghans don't get along with Hazaras is because of their personal character, they have always been against every government of Afghanistan. They are Shia extremists and they always prefer to go against the powerful Sunni governments that surrounds them. You are free to support them but here the issue is that this article needs to be deleted as it has been here for a very long time and there is no sources, the fact is that it is made by someone as a joke because anyone can create an article with all sorts of BS in it. I am not in hate feelings for Hazaras or any other citizens of my lovely Afghanistan, my group of people are doing fine with the vice president being from my province or hometown.--Panjshiri-Tajik (talk) 10:17, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

Comment about the wall of text: People aren't using Google as a source. They are using Google to search for sources, and there are plenty of sources (several of which can be considered reliable) available from a google search that do suggest that it is a real place, and a notable place nonetheless. - Rjd0060 (talk) 15:58, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

Comment: First of all, speedy deletion has specific criteria, which this nomination does not meet. It isn't for stuff you want deleted faster. Second, you say that it is not a province or district, but there is no reason that we cannot write about unofficial regions (see Kurdistan, for example). Third, I'm not using "Google" as my source, I am using books published as much as a century ago, not "nationalistic websites". Fourth, your reference to "personal character" of Hazaras really betrays your agenda here and I hope you won't believe we will fall for your prejudices, which are unacceptable here. --Dhartung | Talk 18:32, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

Comment: You don't need to teach me history about Afghanistan, I can teach you, if you want to know any details. You seems to be provoking me to start talking about race, and you are avoiding the main point that this Hazarajat article is all POV and qualifies to be deleted. You may try to instigate ethnic war here with me but it will not work. Afghanistan may appear like an ethnically divided nation but it's not if you really read the 5,000 year old history of the land. I can't stand stereo type people, and please don't focus on my every word that I type here. Lets end this conversation, it's up to you people to decide if this article remains or not.--Panjshiri-Tajik (talk) 23:08, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

• Keep this is not an official province - the Hazara province being Bamiyan. However, historic or self-identified areas are valid subjects for articles - Kurdistan and Wessex being examples. The existence of the Britannica Online articles provide a valid sourcing. MLA (talk) 11:53, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
• Strong Keep There is many sources which validate this article. They have their own television station, called Hazarajat TV. scope_creep (talk) 19:16, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

• Comment. That tv channel was named by Hazara nationlists as is the case with all tv channels of the world. there is nothing nobody can do with them naming their channel as hazarajat. Hazaras do not have recorded history in Afghanistan before the 16th century, this makes it extremely difficult for anyone to find any Hazarajat being mentioned in any pre-16th century writings by invaders or conquerers. I still say to delete this "Hazarajat" article and just add the little information about "Hazarajat" being called for a region by the Hazaras inside the Bamiyan article, since that is considered as the capital of the whole Hazarajat made-believe region. The made-believe size may be added to whatever extend Hazara nationalists want to. hahaha, I give them permission. I noticed that since Hazaras are Shias, they are pushing for adding areas that is towards Shia nation, Iran. hahaha.--Panjshiri-Tajik (talk) 23:34, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

• Keep-The article is weak and needs further validation but the concept as a separate region is sound. Tibet, even the T.A.R (Tibetan Autonomous Region) is not recognized anymore inside of China but that doesn't make it any less of an ethnic or primarily historical region.---Iconoclast Horizon 02:47, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
• Keep. The point being made here is that it's a rather amorphous but nonetheless real region. It isn't a province of Afghanistan, but neither does the article pretend that it is a province of Afghanistan. The analogy with Kurdistan is a very apt one, particularly when Kurdistan is taken at its fullest hypothetical extent. There are many citations provided, and that should be enough to address the minor forest of "citeneeded" tags added to this article. BigHaz - Schreit mich an 05:31, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.