Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Hawaiian English

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. AFD is not cleanup. Learn to edit, please.--SB | T 05:31, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Hawaiian English

Essential points are false; No verification possible. Agent X 08:25, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

• Keep; sofixit would apply. There are so many types of English that have articles on Wikipedia, and I doubt this one is non notable. CanadianCaesar Et tu, Brute? 08:42, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
• Keep. I did some Googling [1] [2] and I can't find any independent verification of the claims in the article. That doesn't mean they aren't verifiable, of course, but I'd expect to find something. An article that claims the existence of a dialect, I think, should be deleted if no citations can be provided to validate the claim. However, I'm not familiar with this topic, so I don't know what may or may not exist in the academic literature. I'd say leave it with the unreferenced notice, put up a factual accuracy dispute notice if you challenge its validity, and start looking for some sources one way or the other. If it really is unverifiable, and there's some research to back that up, then it should be relisted on AfD. --FreelanceWizard 08:49, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
• Keep. I can confirm that official sites in Hawai'i use the spelling of the Hawai'ian language for Hawai'ian words. The official State of Hawai`i website at http://www.hawaii.gov/portal/ uses the spelling Hawai`i. The article has been around for a long time and seems well-researched. Note, however, that a Google search for "Hawaiian English" will turn up a lot of bilingual Hawaiian-to-English dictionaries rather than a description of the standard English spoken and written in Hawai'i. TruthbringerToronto (Talk | contribs) 08:59, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

Here's what I just added to the stub/article's talk page. It quotes from the constitution to show that essential points of the stub/article are obviously FALSE. According to Wikipedia policies, the burden to verify is on those who want to keep, not on those who want to remove. Agent X 09:27, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

"OFFICIAL LANGUAGES

Section 4. English and Hawaiian shall be the official languages of Hawaii, except that Hawaiian shall be required for public acts and transactions only as provided by law. [Add Const Con 1978 and election Nov 7, 1978]" (italic added for emphasis)

1. As correctly noted above by Bugmuncher, there is NO SUCH THING as "Hawaiian English" in "The Constitution of the State of Hawaii". It is "English", NOT "Hawaiian English", that is an official language of the State of Hawaii. The stub/article makes a FALSE statement and misrepresents the law.

2. Hawaiian language is NEVER REQUIRED in any State of Hawaii activities UNLESS specifically "provided by law". There are NO STATE LAWS requiring the use of Hawaiian language. The stub/article makes another FALSE statement, and again misrepresents the law.

3. The mere optional use of a macron and an opening single quote (so-called `okina), by certain enthusiasts (zealots), does NOT create a "dialect" of English.

4. The claim that use of the two marks is preferred by the majority of Hawaii's people is the DELUSION of an "okina lunatic".

5. The stub/article uses the word "Standard" to describe "Hawaiian English". There is NO SUCH THING as "Standard Hawaiian English". Where are the alleged "standards"? Where are they published? Who has the authority to fabricate such "standards"?

6. The stub/article has NOT ONE reference, and NOT ONE citation. According to Wikipedia:Citing Sources, "any material that is challenged and has no source may be removed by any editor". According to Wikipedia:Verifiability, "The obligation to provide a reputable source lies with the editors wishing to keep the material, not on those seeking to remove it."

Agent X 09:11, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

• Comment. Okay, really, you could have just linked the talk page. However, from reading this, uh, diatribe, it seems to me like there's some POV pushing going on here. Anyway, let me throw out a few academic references that I skimmed, courtesy of JSTOR. Standard English and Student Bodies: Institutionalizing Race and Literacy in Hawai'i (Young, M., 2002; College English 64:4) addresses the way the pidgin and ASE have clashed up until now, with some specific information on the varying uses of it in the culture. There's also the ancient The English Dialect of Hawaii (Reinecke, J. E., & Tokimasa, A., 1934; American Speech 9:1) which does, however, seem to address the creole more specifically. English Patterns in Hawaii (Odo, C., 1970; American Speech 45:3/4) talks about Hawaiian English specifically. Just by looking at JSTOR's results, it seems that what academic literature there is a bit old and may well be talking about Hawaii Creole English instead. Perhaps this article ought to be redirected there instead of deleted? —Preceding unsigned comment added by FreelanceWizard (talk • contribs) on 10:09, August 6, 2006. It's in the history, guy, you could have looked it up any time.
  • The above comment is unsigned, so it's not clear who to address. Anyway, pointing out that certain statements in an encyclopedia article are false is a community service, not "POV pushing". Note that the article/stub clearly attempts to distinguish "Hawaiian English" from "Hawaiian Pidgin". So the suggestion to redirect to "Hawaii Creole English" does not fly. Agent X 11:55, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
• Delete unless completely rewritten before the AFD is over. Hawaiian English exists, of course, but it is not a written standard distinct from American English, as the article implies. Hawaiian English is the variety of American English spoken in Hawaii; to some extent it overlaps with acrolectal Hawaiian Creole English. I'm sure plenty can be said about how the Hawaiian accent differs from General American and what the lexical differences are, provided reliable sources are cited. If the article is rewritten based on those sources, I'll change my vote. But the current version of the article is rubbish and should be deleted. User:Angr 10:17, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
  • I've found some sources for you to work from. Deleting the article will lose them. Keep. Uncle G 11:21, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
    • Thanks for finding the sources. The article still needs to be rewritten to incorporate the information in them, though. User:Angr 11:45, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
• Redirect to Hawaiian Pidgin if no proof can be presented that "Hawaiian English" is clearly distinct from standard American English. There are surely some minor dialectical difference but no more than you'd find, in say, New Jersey or South Florida. It seems that the pidgin is the only distinct language cited in the sources on JSTOR. If not redirect, then Delete. Andrew Levine 16:21, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
  • The 7 journal articles and 3 books in the Further Reading section of the article are not convincing? As for "no more different than New Jersey or South Florida", did you not see New York–New Jersey English and Southern American English linked to at the bottom of the article? If Hawaiian English is, as you say, akin to them, then the logical decision is "keep". You appear to have skipped over at least two thirds of the article. Uncle G 17:49, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
    • I did check some of the journal articles and they seemed to indicate that there are no major differences between the article's subject and standard American English. I removed several of the references because it was clear from reading them that they had nothing to do with the subject of this article and were rather about Hawaiian Creole or Pidgin. I will see if I can check the rest later. Andrew Levine 18:50, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
• Note: This debate has been included in the list of Oceania-related deletions. -- Capitalistroadster 21:37, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
• Delete unless completely rewritten before the AFD is over. Does the user who nominated for deletion get to vote? If not, ignore my vote. Otherwise, I second the comments of user Angr. The existing main text, which has been around for about 2 years now, is factually incorrect. When the clearly false statements are removed, there's next to nothing left.

  I have lived in Hawaii for about 50 years. Do any of you find my writing to constitute a "standard dialect" of "Hawaiian English"? If I had not told you that I've lived in Hawaii for 50 years, would you have known, from my written English, that I have?

  Hawaii is very diverse linguistically. Diversity wreaks havoc on "standardness". Our statewide community is one of the most racially mixed, economically mixed, socially mixed, educationally mixed, and linguistically mixed, in the USA. We have over 800,000 short-term visitors (tourists) per year, nearly equalling our total population. A significant portion of our residents are military personnel and families who move on to their next assignment after a few years here. We have significant continuous immigration from around the world, and many locally born-and-raised people move away as adults because the median cost for a house is over $600,000 and most of us can't afford that. In such a dynamic, transient, and diverse population, you don't get a "standard" dialect of anything. If you search long enough, you might be able to find books that make almost any claims that you want to "verify". But just because something got published, that doesn't guarantee that it's claims are true. Anyway, if one of you people who want to keep the "Hawaiian English" article manages to write up an intelligent piece that does not make clearly false claims, that will be okay with me. But the current "rubbish", as Angr correctly described it, must be DELETED. Agent X 11:55, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

  • If you think that the content is wrong, then hit the edit tab on the article and edit it to make it right. You have 14 potential sources in the article to work from. AFD is not Category:Wikipedia articles needing rewrite. A dialect is not exclusive to written language, by the way. Uncle G 14:50, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
    • To Uncle G --- I'm for delete. There is no reason for me to "make it right". The burden is on YOU, or whoever votes "keep", to look at your 14 potential sources. As for "dialect", see my reply to Calton below. Agent X 14:57, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

• Do any of you find my writing to constitute a "standard dialect" of "Hawaiian English"? I find your writing indicates that you're unclear of the meaning of "dialect", if nothing else. --Calton | Talk 12:53, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
• I find your writing indicates that you fail to read with comprehension, and you fail to read the relevant parts of the discussion, such as the article nominated for deletion and its talk page. You should read what I wrote about ee cummings, as well as my reply to your ignorant comments below. Agent X 15:05, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

• Keep notable dialect. Carlossuarez46 20:04, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
  • What makes it "notable"? SPECIFY exactly what you KNOW, not what you think, assume, or guess, but what you KNOW makes Hawaiian English (not Hawaiian, not Hawaiian Pidgin, not Hawaiian Creole English) "notable". Put up or shut up. Agent X 15:14, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
• Redirect to Hawaiian Pidgin. This article in its current state is basically wrong. If somebody wants to write a decent article on a real topic of Hawaiian English, let them do so and then put it where the redirect was, but keeping this is not helpful to anyone. GassyGuy 22:26, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

• Except that would be wrong. See below. --Calton | Talk 12:49, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
  • I cannot make heads or tails of the information in the first paragraph of this article. If you'd like to rewrite it using whatever sources you have, I'd be happy to reconsider, but as it stands that one is particularly bad. If I understand what it's trying to say, it's just wrong, but as you say otherwise, perhaps I'm just misreading it. I take less umbrage with the second paragraph but I honestly think one would do better to start from scratch than to attempt to use this as a base. The redirect isn't the perfect use of this name but, in my opinion, it's more useful than what it currently houses. GassyGuy 06:51, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

• Keep based on the legal recognition LactoseTI 02:13, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
  • To LactoseTI --- WHAT "legal recognition"????? I challenge you to cite and quote ANY LAW that recognizes HAWAIIAN ENGLISH. There's no such law. Put up or shut up. Agent X 14:26, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
• Keep. I'm not sure what the nominator's problem is, but a quick look at my Oxford Companion to the English Language (1992, edited by Tom McArthur) says this is completely 100% valid, whatever weird tangents about law he goes off on. Half-page entry on ppg 463-4, covering distinctive features, vocabulary, local usage (like giving directions: "Go ewa one block, turn makai at the traffic light, go two blocks Diamond Head, and you'll find the place on the mauka side of the street"). And before you ask, there are separate entries for "Hawaii", "Hawaiian", "Hawaii Creole English", AND "Hawaii Pidgin English", so no, they're no confusing "Hawaiian English" with anything else. And the nom's ranting about the okina is contradicted by the "Hawaiian" article, where it describes the glottal stop "where some have /k/, marked in technical writing by a reverse inverted apostrophe (’) and in general usage by an ordinary apostrophe (') (mu’umu’u or mu'umu'u for mukumuku, a loose-fitting woman's dress)..." As for pronunciation, anecdotally, I have no doubt it's true, going by the word of my sister who lives in Hawaii. --Calton | Talk 12:49, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
  • To Calton --- You call The Constitution of the State of Hawaii a "weird tangent". It's quoted above. You should try reading the discussion, with comprehension, before opening your mouth. You should also read the article nominated for deletion. As you can see, if you actually read the relevant discussion above, I seconded the comments of Angr, who pointed out that a dialect is spoken language, as opposed to written. It is the writer of the Hawaiian English article, not me, who has claimed that the use of okinas in WRITING has created a dialect of American English. In asking if anyone finds my writing to constitute a "standard dialect" of "Hawaiian English", I am pointing out that nobody can. Apparently that was "over your head". As for your comment about glottal stops, you are demonstrating profound ignorance. The stuff you quoted relates to Hawaiian, NOT to Hawaiian English. In the historical development of the Hawaiian phonemes, Proto Polynesian *k is reflected as Hawaiian /ʔ/. Diachronic sound changes do not take place instantly throughout the lexicon, some words are like stragglers, and some simply resist a sound change even though the change affects nearly every other word in the language. That's why there are some variant forms, like mukumuku and mu`umu`u. The older form has k, the newer form has glottal stop. But again, your quote is totally irrelevant to Hawaiian English, and it demonstrates that you don't know what you're talking about. If you are interested in Hawaiian phonology, check out my contributions to the Hawaiian language and Hawaiian phonology pages. When I first contributed to the Hawaiian language page, before having a user account, I put in a citation. It was the first and only citation in the article. Every single citation that's in the article now was put in by me. As for the use of directional expressions, like "mauka" or "makai", it's not something that everyone has to use. I've been speaking English in Hawaii for about 50 years, and I don't use "mauka" or "makai". Some people do. But the usage of "some people" does not make it "standard" for all speakers. When I speak Hawaiian (not "Hawaiian English"), which I speak fluently, then I use ma uka and ma kai, or i uka and i kai, or ā uka and ā kai, as appropriate in a given context. But I don't use those expressions when I speak English, which is my first language. The mere usage of four directional expressions, by a subset of people (who are probably trying too hard to show that they are "local"), is not very significant, and is not enough to justify an encyclopedia article on a "dialect". A dialect is characterized by speech behavior which is automatic and generally beyond the conscious control of the speaker, as opposed to optional, conscious selections of lexical items and expressions. Agent X 14:17, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

• You call The Constitution of the State of Hawaii a "weird tangent". Yes. Completely irrelevant to the topic at hand, no matter how much you scream, shout, and jump up and down. What the Constitution of the State of Hawaii -- or the constitution of any state -- has to to do with the recognition of a dialect is, well, nothing whatsoever.
• Every single citation that's in the article now was put in by me. Some advice: if you're going to write something untrue, try not to do so with things that are easily checked. Makes it easy to catch you, don't you know.
• A dialect is characterized by speech behavior which is automatic... You have a source for this definition, other than your nether regions? And how, exactly, does it apply here? --Calton | Talk 00:34, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

• Redirect to Hawaiian Pidgin, as the sources seem not to confirm any of the statements. It's a plausible redirect, though. — Arthur Rubin | (talk) 21:52, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
  • Maybe a disambiguation page can help. The 3 expressions "Hawaiian Pidgin (English)", "Hawaiian Creole English", and "Hawaiian English", can be easily confused by people who have not previously considered technical linguistic terminology such as "pidgin" (not originally a first language for anyone), versus "creole" (a pidgin which has become a first language for at least some people), versus a U.S.-State-reckoned geographical variety of English ("Hawaii English", "Oregon English", "Arizona English", etc.). I would not be surprised if some publications have used the phrase "Hawaiian English" to mean the same thing as "Hawaiian Creole English" or "Hawaiian Pidgin", rather than to mean "the first-language English of people raised in the U.S. State of Hawaii, which is not creole (nor pidgin)". Perhaps there could be an article titled something like "English in Hawaii". Such an article could point out the simultaneous co-existence of many different Englishes in Hawaii, along with many other languages, and discuss the influences of those languages on "Englishes spoken in Hawaii". Since Hawaii has tourists from all 50 U.S. states, off-and-on all year long, every year, every different State-reckoned English is constantly being spoken in Hawaii. We also have Japanese-accented English, Filipino-accented English, Thai-accented English, etc., etc. However, supporting published sources may be lacking for such an article. Perhaps the only one of the different "Englishes of Hawaii" that has enough published discussion to support an encyclopedia article is the pidgin/creole. If redirect means that the current "Hawaiian English" stub/article will be eliminated, then that's okay with me. Agent X 15:05, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.