Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Grimmjow Jeagerjaques
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was no consensus. W.marsh 00:46, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Grimmjow Jeagerjaques
This is a non-notable character that only has information provided from the primary source. There is no chance of real world information being added to appease WP:FICT, so the topic does not need to be covered here. It can always be "transwikied" to Wikia. TTN 00:48, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of Anime and manga-related deletions. —Quasirandom 01:58, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of Fictional characters-related deletions. —Quasirandom 01:58, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
- Transwikiing is appropriate for material that neither requires an article or necessitates anything but small mention in another article. A character such as Grimmjow does not fit those parameters. Merging is a far more appropriate option, and should have been proposed instead of this. — Someguy0830 (T | C) 02:00, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
- Questions: 1. Why do you say there is "no chance" of real world information? 2. Why do you propose deleting instead of merging into the relevant character list? —Quasirandom 02:01, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
- A secondary note, since I didn't quite read the whole nom. The no real-world info is BS, as he has tracks on a character album, which is real-world info. May be only slight info, but it's there nonetheless, and establishes information for the character beyond his status within the primary work. — Someguy0830 (T | C) 02:05, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
- Quasirandom: There has been no assertion of notability through reliable sources, and as there has been an effort to improve the article, there definitely has been a search for it. To be more specific, unless it is actually shown, there is no reason to speculate that it exists at this point. That is to counter the argument that this can be cleaned up rather than removed. It can be deleted or merged; it doesn't really matter. It's just easiest to go for the harshest outcome instead of trying to play around with the fans. Though, I would just rather see it deleted to get a real baring on what needs to be covered.
- Someguy: That is not real world information that can actually build an article. It is on the same level as a voice actor, so it has no relevance in establishing notability. Do you also realize how many characters have theme songs? It's not very uncommon. TTN 02:15, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
- Not my point, nor a relevant one. it is still real-world info, no matter how common, which makes your original assertion incorrect. Furthermore, AFD does not exist for cleanup or for you to make a point, which you admit to by saying that you've done this for that express purpose in your last line to Quasirandom. You want cleanup, you tag, you don't use this process to achieve that end. you've made absolutely no attempt in that regard. — Someguy0830 (T | C) 02:27, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
- Again, it is in the same league as voice actors, which we do not count towards article building real world information. If we did, most characters would essentially have real world information. As I said, while I do not feel like dealing with fans, I would actually like to see this deleted because it does not belong on the site, and I really don't think we need to cover it beyond maybe two sentences in a more condensed list. We place too much emphasis on covering all characters rather than just the key ones. TTN 02:34, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
- No, it is not in the same vein as voice actors. It is in the same vein as toy lines, or other secondary products created and sold in relation to the media. As for the rest of that, that's your opinion, and your attempt to use AfD to avoid dealing with "fans" (a ridiculous assertion) is hardly a valid reason for outright deletion. — Someguy0830 (T | C) 02:45, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
- No, it cannot hold an article (neither can any other generic merchandise), so it is the same thing. It would be like trying to assert that appearing in video games is also enough. The article has no article building real world information (regardless of the state of the theme songs, it is not enough to substantiate an article), so it does not belong here. My rational is that it needs to be deleted, but if we end up with merge, I'll live with it. Regardless of how you view my nomination, it is quite valid, so if you want to continue this, feel free to drop by my talk page. TTN 02:52, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
- I still find your reasons for nominating this in the first place completely contrary to the purpose of this process, but I'll let it go. Next time, however, I hope you at least try to improve a page, because I know you've taken fire for not doing so before. — Someguy0830 (T | C) 02:56, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
- It's not TTN's job to go hunting for something that might be there, without having something to suggest that there might be significant real world information (note the word significant, as in, not just any real world information, but something significant.) -- Ned Scott 20:24, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
- I still find your reasons for nominating this in the first place completely contrary to the purpose of this process, but I'll let it go. Next time, however, I hope you at least try to improve a page, because I know you've taken fire for not doing so before. — Someguy0830 (T | C) 02:56, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
- No, it cannot hold an article (neither can any other generic merchandise), so it is the same thing. It would be like trying to assert that appearing in video games is also enough. The article has no article building real world information (regardless of the state of the theme songs, it is not enough to substantiate an article), so it does not belong here. My rational is that it needs to be deleted, but if we end up with merge, I'll live with it. Regardless of how you view my nomination, it is quite valid, so if you want to continue this, feel free to drop by my talk page. TTN 02:52, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
- No, it is not in the same vein as voice actors. It is in the same vein as toy lines, or other secondary products created and sold in relation to the media. As for the rest of that, that's your opinion, and your attempt to use AfD to avoid dealing with "fans" (a ridiculous assertion) is hardly a valid reason for outright deletion. — Someguy0830 (T | C) 02:45, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
- Again, it is in the same league as voice actors, which we do not count towards article building real world information. If we did, most characters would essentially have real world information. As I said, while I do not feel like dealing with fans, I would actually like to see this deleted because it does not belong on the site, and I really don't think we need to cover it beyond maybe two sentences in a more condensed list. We place too much emphasis on covering all characters rather than just the key ones. TTN 02:34, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
- Not my point, nor a relevant one. it is still real-world info, no matter how common, which makes your original assertion incorrect. Furthermore, AFD does not exist for cleanup or for you to make a point, which you admit to by saying that you've done this for that express purpose in your last line to Quasirandom. You want cleanup, you tag, you don't use this process to achieve that end. you've made absolutely no attempt in that regard. — Someguy0830 (T | C) 02:27, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
- A secondary note, since I didn't quite read the whole nom. The no real-world info is BS, as he has tracks on a character album, which is real-world info. May be only slight info, but it's there nonetheless, and establishes information for the character beyond his status within the primary work. — Someguy0830 (T | C) 02:05, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
- I really wish people would stop using "no real world information" as shorthand for "no information that establishes real-world notability" -- it's not the same thing and only confuses the issue when there are other, non-primary sources. I was going to vote merge, but Someguy0830's right that the nominator pretty much admits this AfD is to make a point, so it's keep instead as a borderline bad-faith nomination. If you really and honestly believe in holding articles to WP:FICT, hold yourself to the guideline as well and tag articles for merging instead of jumping to what itself calls the last resort of deletion. —Quasirandom 03:47, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
- Additional argument for my Keep vote: Someguy0830 has shown that there are ways to establish notability. Tag it for the appropriate cleanup and give the editors who know the subject best a chance to use them. —Quasirandom 16:26, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
- Keep. Grimmjow's pretty notable. After all he did fight Ichigo 3 times and has his own character album. Hell Pyro 04:57, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
- Keep - I see no reason to delete Grimmjow's page. Firstly, he is an overall major supporter, like how Renji was when he was first introduced. Secondly, if any, Nnoitra's page or Ulquiorra's page should be deleted or merge due to stubbiness, not Grimmjow. Thirdly, you TTN, haven't tried to clean up Grimmjow's article in any way, but if you have done so beforehand and see whether its worth keeping or not, I'm sure many others would agree with you for valid reasons. --Hanaichi 09:25, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
- Delete as there are no reliable secondary sources to provide evidence of notability outside of this comic series. There is no real-world reason for keeping this article.--Gavin Collins 09:32, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
- Delete, or transwiki to Bleach wikia, whether tracks featuring the character is real-world data or not, there is no secondary information listed. And while overlooking the page, I noticed that a lot of it is unreferenced, such as his physique comparing to a character from Zombie Powder appears to be original content. Lord Sesshomaru (talk • edits) 10:38, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
- Those are reasons for cleanup, not deletion. — Someguy0830 (T | C) 11:05, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
- For an attempt at sources, none of which I can read in the least, but a few of which seem good: some sort of figurines, one of the games with Grimmjow featured heavily, I suppose you paint these, keychains, I doubt this is reliable but I point it out regardless, shirt, wallet?, and even his funny outfit. I do realize those are mostly products of some variety, but sorting through Japanese Google hits by website name is hit and miss at best. — Someguy0830 (T | C) 11:05, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
- Things like voice actors, cameos, video games, and other merchandise are technically real world information, but alone they cannot be used to build an article. They are essentially filler material to help pack down development and reception information. Without setting up the "girders" (i.e. the connection between the similar character if correctly sourced), you have nothing to support the "bricks" (the above information). TTN 16:25, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
- They cannot build a whole article, no, but they can establish notability, which is the part that most requires real-world sourcing. —Quasirandom 16:45, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
- Merchandise does not establish notability. You need production and reception information to do that. If it did, many characters would be considered instantly notable. The most you could place in the article from those sources is "Grimmjow has various toys and other merchandise, such as X, Y, and Z. He also appears as a playable character in various Bleach video games." That is the opening of a reception/popular culture section, nothing more. TTN 17:49, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
- They cannot build a whole article, no, but they can establish notability, which is the part that most requires real-world sourcing. —Quasirandom 16:45, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
- Things like voice actors, cameos, video games, and other merchandise are technically real world information, but alone they cannot be used to build an article. They are essentially filler material to help pack down development and reception information. Without setting up the "girders" (i.e. the connection between the similar character if correctly sourced), you have nothing to support the "bricks" (the above information). TTN 16:25, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
- Keep You don't consider the existence of a character album to be notable? Would real world reception to this album or to the character itself, if found, satisfy your threshold of notability? If not, I feel that a merge to List of Bleach hollows would be more appropriate than outright deletion... --GhostStalker(Got a present for ya! | Mission Log) 17:23, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
- Delete per nom and Gavin Collins. Doctorfluffy 17:36, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
- Keep - This article describes the plot and the character of a highly popular and notable anime and manga series, currently airing in America. A small rewrite may be in order, but deleting it is overkill. dposse 18:15, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
- Merge until enough real-world content is found to warrant an independent article. Regardless if the album is real world information or not, that information doesn't justify the in-depth plot summary currently on the article. -- Ned Scott 20:26, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
- Keep - I second the statements of Hanaichi and GhostStalker. Big red01027 07:52, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
- Keep - I agree with Hanaichi on this. No reason to delete. RedEyesMetal 23:25, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
- Keep - As the upcoming plot moves forward this entry will be relevant. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.62.41.31 (talk) 00:49, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
- Comment - With the current discussion going on at List of Bleach characters, you can clearly see that Grimmjow has 5 votes keep, 0 votes merge. So, regarding WP:CON, none of the editors wish to actually merge/delete Grimmjow's article. --Hanaichi 01:38, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
- As the owner of the Bleach Wiki, I request that it be transwikied to Bleach Wiki, that way we don't lose important info, when the article could have EASILY been merged and the history kept intact.--TheUltimate3 02:08, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of Comics and animation-related deletions. —Hiding Talk 11:06, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
- Merge to List of Bleach hollows (with some trimming) and transwiki to the Bleach Wiki to preserve all the information. WP:FICT recommends characters failing notability to merged to articles like Characters of Final Fantasy VIII, which seems the best solution here. If reliable sources can be found then people could look into a split at some point in the future. (Emperor 16:38, 8 November 2007 (UTC))
- Comment: That's right, we must delete this trivial article that's only useful to a few thousand people in order to save electrons. Remember, save those electrons, they're more important than you think. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 134.139.148.100 (talk) 18:12, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
- Keep. Bad faith nom. Grimmjow is a major character in at least 3 of the major arcs (initial siege of the city by arrancar, second siege to "snatch" orihime, and third the battle near the Las Noches). 252,000 hits on google. -- Cat chi? 22:00, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
- Wait and See Keep. Grimmjow is a major character and the upcoming character poll in December will further establish his notability within Bleach and his fanbase. He's expected to 1) take a very high ranking among tens of thousands of fans and b) remain a very important character for the duration of the manga. As a VG editor, I wonder if these anime topics can establish notability with much ease. Video games get the benefit of industry magazines and guaranteed reviews by major organizations. Some even pick up newspaper references and reviews. Anime, on the other hand, hardly enjoys these automatic avenues of secondary recognition, especially when the character in question has not been introduced in English publications or presentations yet. Deletion is premature. Zeality 03:55, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
- Keep per nom with Hanaichi —Preceding unsigned comment added by Omghgomg (talk • contribs) 04:07, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
- Keep For the reasons Hanaichi mentioned -Twsl 11:36, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
- Keep Also for the same reasons mention by Hanaichi. Also given the reasons for the begining of the discusion there are alot of articles that i have found in wikipedia that also do not meet this "standars" and none of them have been tag for deltion. WhiteStrike 16:19, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
-
- It is simply impossible to tag every single article that should be deleted at once. Also, the very nature of Wikipedia typically leads us to having many articles in need of improvement, and never is that an endorsement of their current condition. And no offense, but you want want to run your comments through a spellchecker before going off on article standards. -- Ned Scott 05:47, 10 November 2007 (UTC)
- Keep Character is a major antagonist of the series. "Never" is incorrect: episodes with the character have not yet aired in the US and once they do secondary sources can be reasonably expected. Buspar 06:14, 10 November 2007 (UTC)
-
Secondary sources means we'll find real world information, or we'll find TV guide listings for those episodes? We are not sourcing what happened in the show, that has never been a problem, what we are looking for is (say it with me now) real world information. -- Ned Scott 06:30, 10 November 2007 (UTC)
- Real world information is what I was referring to - episode descriptions can be based on primary sources. Once this story arc airs on Adult Swim, anime magazines such as Anime Insider and others will run profiles on the various characters introduced, just as they have for other animes being broadcast on network TV. Since Grimmjow is one of the major combatants, it is reasonable to conclude he'll receive attention. Japanese secondary sources likely have info already, but those are difficult to use. If we had someone who could read Japanese right now, the article could sport a number of secondary sources with real world info. In time, equivalent English sources will be available. Therefore, this article meets the "Can it be perfect?" test, which is a good reason to keep. Buspar 06:41, 10 November 2007 (UTC)
- Ah, my bad then. -- Ned Scott 06:48, 10 November 2007 (UTC)
- Now, how many characters has that happened for? I would say that the characters of Dragon Ball and Naruto would receive coverage in English before any Bleach characters, yet all of them are in the same boat as this one. Not even the main Bleach characters have received any coverage, so why exactly does Grimmjow have a chance? And please do not use the "It's Japanese, so it's just because of the language barrier" argument. The actual case is that manga authors keep most of their details to themselves, only releasing very small, mostly trivial bits in interviews. The studios that make them are even more secure usually, as they do not really seem to care about things like commentary and other stuff. You'll need to give us an example through another character or this character to have any argument there. TTN 12:53, 10 November 2007 (UTC)
- Not even the main Bleach characters have received any coverage It's clear that you haven't read any of the anime/manga trade magazines, have you? --Farix (Talk) 03:44, 11 November 2007 (UTC)
- Given that I remember reading an extended article on the Bleach main characters in Newtype a few months ago, your "not received any coverage" line is false. The fact is that anime broadcast on Adult Swim has received significant coverage in anime magazines over the years. For example, Anime Insider did extensive coverage of the FMA cast. So there's clear evidence that coverage will come when the episodes air. I recommend you explore what secondary sources exist for anime episodes and their publication histories. You don't appear to be very familiar with anime media or its industry, which is probably why you made the incorrect statement about "no chance of real world information" in your AfD proposal. Buspar 08:26, 11 November 2007 (UTC)
- I'm talking about significant real world coverage, not an in-depth description of the character as it appears in the anime or manga. If it is the latter, they are being described, not covered. If I'm wrong, feel free to add some sources to the Bleach articles, which are currently void of real world information (except for a trivial little flash movie). The same goes for the Fullmetal Alchemist characters. TTN 12:35, 11 November 2007 (UTC)
- Now, how many characters has that happened for? I would say that the characters of Dragon Ball and Naruto would receive coverage in English before any Bleach characters, yet all of them are in the same boat as this one. Not even the main Bleach characters have received any coverage, so why exactly does Grimmjow have a chance? And please do not use the "It's Japanese, so it's just because of the language barrier" argument. The actual case is that manga authors keep most of their details to themselves, only releasing very small, mostly trivial bits in interviews. The studios that make them are even more secure usually, as they do not really seem to care about things like commentary and other stuff. You'll need to give us an example through another character or this character to have any argument there. TTN 12:53, 10 November 2007 (UTC)
- Ah, my bad then. -- Ned Scott 06:48, 10 November 2007 (UTC)
- Keep -Really, is there any reason what so ever to delete Grimmjow, or merge him? I can understand deleteing mergeing Kon's page to others full list or Nnoitra's, but Grimmjow's is just stupidity. Grimmjow is a important character and, who cares if his article is kinda short, many are short on Bleach, like Shinji's for example, but he is important like Grimmjow so there is really no reason to delete him ethier.Ultimaterasengan 14:20, 11 November 2007 (UTC)
- Delete No secondary sources to establish notability or provide real world context. Jay32183 00:42, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
