Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Greg Bownds

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus to delete, default to keep. Sandstein 12:41, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Greg Bownds

Greg Bownds (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs)

Non-notable wrestler, article fails WP:BIO and WP:V. A Google search turns up no reliable sources and about 90 unique hits. If not for disruption caused by a banned editor, this would be a possible candidate for db-bio. Article should be deleted. RWR8189 07:25, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

Delete - fails WP:BIO. MER-C 10:44, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

• Changed to neutral. MER-C 11:24, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
• Never heard of him, which doesn't mean much, I don't follow wraslin. A quick look at his website suggests the organisation he started is basically limited to Sydney. At a guess, he's mainly a small scale organiser/manager of wrestling bouts and wrestlers. I could be very wrong, but it's hard to to tell much from only what I can find on the net. Unless more evidence to the contrary can be found, delete. (But not speedy.) Regards, Ben Aveling 10:45, 7 January 2007 (UTC) See below. Ben Aveling 11:39, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
• Note: This debate has been included in the list of Australia-related deletions. Ben Aveling 10:45, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
• Delete as nn unverifiable bio. Sarah 22:22, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
• Delete I guess. I contributed some to this article, like adding the finishing moves and the championships, but if it doesn't meet the guidelines, I guess there's nothing else to do. -- FPAtl (holla, holla, holla) 10:46, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
• Keep I'll need to do plenty of cleanup to tidy up the article, trimming it down to the essentials but... he's wrestled in Japan for Z1 Max who are a big promotion. He wrestled there under the Aussie Ozbone name according to the AWF site [1]. Aussie Ozbone (of AWF) appearing is confirmed by the official American Z1 Max site [2][3][4]. His matches were broadcast on Samurai TV as part of the Z1 TV shows, the official stockist has him listed on them [5]. I'm generally in favour of deletion of minor league wrestlers who only appear for local promotions, but the fact he's been to Japan and wrestled for a big promotion and appeared on TV makes him notable in my opinion. One Night In Hackney 10:49, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
• Keep - this has been another example of a wholesale attack on lesser wrestling articles. See User talk:Durova. Anyway, in this case, he's clearly notable - he's won an Australasian title. --Dweller 11:18, 8 January 2007 (UTC) (amended Dweller 11:44, 8 January 2007 (UTC)) (amended again, see below Dweller 12:00, 8 January 2007 (UTC))
  • Comment I must say I am curious under what criterion of Wikipedia:Speedy keep this falls under.--RWR8189 11:55, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
    • Quite right and my apologies. The speedy keep was in response to my original thinking that this was part of the systematic attack on wrestling articles. It was then pointed out on my talk page that the nominator was a user in good standing. I should have amended my !vote at the same time as mu opinion. I have to say that I find the nomination very puzzling... he's clearly notable. --Dweller 12:00, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
• I think this is the most relevant section of WP:BIO
  • Sportspeople/athletes/competitors who have played in a fully professional league, or a competition of equivalent standing in a non-league sport such as swimming, or at the highest level in mainly amateur sports or other competitive activities that are themselves considered notable, including college sports in the United States. Articles about first team squad members who have not made a first team appearance may also be appropriate, but only if the individual is at a club of sufficient stature that most members of its squad are worthy of articles. Third-party verification from a non-trivial publication outside of publications by sponsors of the sport or activity should be provided to demonstrate that the subject is widely recognized—meeting the first criterion—as performing in a fully professional league or at the highest level.

If wrestling in Australia is notable, then I guess this guy is also notable. It's not a very high standard, probably lower than I'd set, but I suspect he meets it (though I'd like to see some more sources to be 100% sure of WP:V. I guess I'm going to ask one question before I make up my mind. To be sure, there are a lot of other pages with less claim to exist than this does.

Is this guy one of the top 10 most notable people in Australian Professional Wrestling? If so, how can we be reasonable confident of that? Regards, Ben Aveling 11:39, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

Comment I'm not aware of how notable wrestling is or isn't in Australia, as I don't have much knowledge of it. However the crux of my argument isn't really anything to do with Australia, it's the fact he's wrestled in Japan for a mainstream promotion on national TV. That's at a far higher level than anything in Australia, and makes him notable in my opinion. With regards to verifiability, I'm planning to have a look at the article and trim out anything that can't be properly sourced. However I'm hoping that the reliable sources I provided about are sufficient to demonstrate his notability, which is the most important thing. Most of the content that isn't verified at present doesn't have any bearing on his notability as far as I can see. One Night In Hackney 11:58, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

Comment WP:V is not negotiable. Thus far I have not seen non-trivial writeups in reliable sources. Most of the first page of Google results are mirrors of the Wikipedia page.--RWR8189 11:54, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

Comment I've provided evidence of his notability from reliable sources above. One Night In Hackney 11:58, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

Comment It seems we have differing interpretations of WP:RS, the sources given above seem to be little more than non-notable fan sites, please correct me if I am far off base.--RWR8189 12:06, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

Comment The Zero-One Max site isn't a fan site, it's the official English language site for the promotion and linked to from the official Japanese site. Steve Corino is heavily involved with Z1, and quite a lot of American wrestlers appear there so they have an English language site as well run by him. I'm only using the merchandise site (also run by Steve Corino) to demonstrate the matches did actually air on TV. The fact he wrestled in Japan (which is what makes him notable) is verifiable by reliable sources. One Night In Hackney 12:15, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

Comment - regarding the sources - it would be preferred if the sources were not the promoter - who can put whatever they want on their web page without having to do anything other than issue a short appology statement in a local newspaper if they substitute performers on the night of the performance.Garrie 23:32, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

Comment I agree. However the linked articles are actually the results of shows that have already happened. This could also be confirmed by independent fan sites (which is worse in my opinion), and could also be confirmed by the Japanese press who do actually cover wrestling but foreign language sources aren't well liked. One Night In Hackney 01:27, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

• Keep Notable Australian professional wrester. DXRAW 06:35, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
• It's been suggested to me that "Pro-wrestlers are entertainers participating in a scripted performance. They aren't sportspeople competing to the best of their ability in a contest of skill. Compare them to the actors section, because that's what they are" Without wishing to take a side on that argument, I'll copy the comment here and let people react as they will. Plus I'm not sure that BIO really covers actors outside of TV and movies. Perhaps a version of the professor test should apply: "Is this guy more significant than the average wrestler? Why or why not?" Regards, Ben Aveling 09:05, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

• The "average" wrestler would depend on definition. There's hundreds and hundreds of "minor league" independent wrestlers, and not many who are "major league". So has this wrestler done anything to make him more significant than the hundreds of others, anything to make him stand out from the pack? Most definitely, he's been to Japan to work for a major promotion and appeared on TV. One Night In Hackney 09:28, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
• Comment I'll own up to the criticism of the sport-person BIO test, and go along with this proposed modified Professor Test. Still no real opinion, I've not heard of him but Hulk Hogan is the only pro-wrestler I can both name and describe... vaguely! Garrie 05:31, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

• Comment Just to clarify why wrestling in Japan makes someone notable. Wrestling in Japan is a mainstream "sport", it's covered by newspapers and magazines on a daily basis. For example sportsnavi is part of Yahoo, and has a comprehensive section dedicated to wrestling, in addition to soccer, tennis, baseball etc. In fact, there is even a show report from one of the shows Bownds appeared on [6], where Google translation manages to rename him to Orgy Osborne. One Night In Hackney 07:28, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.