Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Gohar Shahi

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was Keep. Walton^talk 20:05, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Gohar Shahi

Gohar Shahi (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) – (View log)

This page has been deleted several times, usually as a copyright violation from this religious leader's web page. It seems the followers of Gohar Shahi are determined to add a page on him to Wikipedia (article creator, Iamsaa (talk · contribs), is apparently "the office bearer of Anjuman Serfaroshan-e-Islam an international spiritual movement founded by His Holiness Riaz Ahmed Gohar Shahi in 1980 in Pakistan and being an office bearer I am responsible to propagate and preach activities on Internet"[1]). An AfD may sort this out further as to whether this is a topic to be covered (perhaps by editors with far less of a conflict-of-interest) or deleted and salted.

The article (completely copied at User:Iamsaa) fails to have any semblance of sourcing beyond the groups own websites. There's 170 unique Google hits for "Riaz Ahmed Gohar Shahi", and a cursory look at some of them indicate that it may be difficult to find any source from which to base a neutral article. The current article is most certainly not neutral. I'd argue that this article should be deleted based on failing verifiability policy, lacking independent reliable sources, and may be an unsalvagable case of POV (spam-ish, even). — Scientizzle 15:58, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

comment "In 1994, in Manchester England, some people pointed out the image of Gohar Shahi on the Moon. Thereafter many eyewitness accounts were reported from different countries. Photographs were taken of the Moon by using video equipment. Photographs of the Moon were then obtained from different countries and the Space agency NASA. In the beginning the facial images on these photographs were light. For the last two years the images on the Moon have become so clear that they can be seen without the use of binoculars or computer equipment" I was going to suggest rewriting this from a factual viewpoint, I realise now that might be tricky. Nick mallory 16:39, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

Quite... — Scientizzle 16:43, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

• Speedy delete and lock page so no new article can be recreated - if the article has already been deleted in the past, especially several time, and a new article created ignoring previous deletes, then this thing can be speedily deleted and the earth salted. DreamGuy 20:37, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
  • I with you all the way, but I avoided speedy deleting it myself because it is plausible that this man is a subject worth covering...certainly not in the way the article currently stands, of course. Additionally, I'd prefer to have a gauged consensus to justify any future deletion/salting rather than act unilaterally in opposition to an editor determined to promote his guru. Of course, if someone does speedily delete and salt this article, I won't lose a wink of sleep. — Scientizzle 21:32, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
• Note: This debate has been included in the list of India-related deletions. -- John Vandenberg 00:50, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
• Comment It should not be salted if there is still the possibility of creating a legitimate encyclopedia aritcle. If that possibility exists, the present article should be replaced by a better and more encyclopedic one. This therefore comes down to a question of notability -- first off, is this guy notable enough to deserve a Wikipedia article? If so, then there should be one even if this ain't it. Otherwise, then yes, it would probably be a good idea to both delete and salt the page so it can't be used for all this biased tar. mike4ty4 03:29, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

Re: His Holiness Riaz Ahmed Gohar Shahi

May I take this opportunity to thank all guys on Wikipedia, yes, I have tried many times on Wikipedia to add article on His Holiness Riaz Ahmed Gohar Shahi with no success. Let me tell you though we are Muslims but extremist and anti-sufi groups are after us in Pakistan. Strong lobbies are working against His Holiness Riaz Ahmed Gohar Shahi even the Government of Sindh itself involve against His Holiness Riaz Ahmed Gohar Shahi. Getting justice through Pakistani courts is nearly impossible. Media in Pakistan is producing wrong picture of His Holiness Riaz Ahmed Gohar Shahi in public as a result the public in Pakistan consider us as a new sect or religion due to yellow journalism and negative propaganda by extremists Muslim groups. The teaching of His Holiness Riaz Ahmed Gohar Shahi is based on spiritualism without any discrimination of cast, creed or religion. That’s the reason people of all sect and religion attracted towards His Holiness Riaz Ahmed Gohar Shahi and enlightened their hearts with his blessings. His Holiness Riaz Ahmed Gohar Shahi says "In order to recognize, and to be able to approach the essence of Allah (God), learn spirituality (Ruhaniyat), no matter what religion or sect you belong to"

Let me tell you that I don’t know much about computing nor about English. English is not my mother tongue and its very difficult for me to read in English. However, I am an office bearer of International Spiritual Movement Anjuman Serfroshan-e-Islam and whatever text I have copies is from our own website and I can take full responsibility of its content.

May I request you guys to kindly add this article of His Holiness Riaz Ahmed Gohar Shahi into Wikipedia and help me to make it appropriate for Wikipedia. I have add resources section in this column and try to provide you as much as I can.

Thank for your help & support.

Regards,

--سگِ گوھرشاہی 06:43, 12 June 2007 (UTC) (Iamsaa (talk · contribs))

• To User:Iamsaa: Trust me, you will not want Wikipedia to have an article on your beloved imam. Why, all I can find of him from newspapers on Factiva is that anything he writes is of late banned by the Pakistani government and to be destroyed immediately. Beyond that I cannot find any information on the imam himself. I take that as a good sign that we should not have an article on this religious teacher. Resurgent insurgent 17:46, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
  • However if he is notable enough he still should have an article -- that's what an encyclopedia is for, no? mike4ty4 03:29, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
• I have to warn the supporters of keeping this article that if their wish to keep it is granted, they will not be able to keep any reliably sourced negative information about this person and his followers out of the article. Tidbits such as:

  "Sindh Government has imposed ban on circular of Urdu Poster "Riaz Ahmed Gohar Shahi - Imam Mehdi Al-Muntazir" purported to have been issued by Anjuman-i-Sarfroshan-i-Islam found pasted in some parts of Karachi. According to an official handout released here Saturday, the poster calls upon people to recognize Riaz Ahmed Gohar Shahi as Imam Mehdi and contains material causing resentment among Muslims. The government has therefore declared that all copies of the poster are liable to be forfeited to the government with immediate effect, the handout said."

  So think very carefully, according to WP:COI. As far as the rest of the world goes this person appears to be some sort of Islamic crackpot. Resurgent insurgent 17:54, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

Comment Iamsaa (talk · contribs) has added some sources. — Scientizzle 19:10, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

• Attn: All,

I have added the article on Wikipedia because in my view the Wikipedia should have an article on world famous spiritual personality His Holiness Riaz Ahmed Gohar Shahi. I am still working on this article as this article is not complete yet, I am trying my level best to make it as an appropriate article for Wikipedia but it will take some time as you all can see that developments are coming in for this article and I am sure that once when this article is completed you will surely find it a source of information about His Holiness Riaz Ahmed Gohar Shahi.

Meanwhile, may I request the administration of Wikipedia to kindly remove this article from Wikipedia:Articles for deletion, so that I could work with concentration.

Thanking you in anticipation.

Kind regards, --سگِ گوھرشاہی 05:47, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

• Keep as for all verifiable religious leaders. There are published sources for some of this, and from the discussion it looks like there should be more. Iamsaa could usefully find sources, but based on the present article he has COI that will prevent NPOV editing. I will however help him out by some very large deletions once the AfD is concluded.

It would of course be almost equally easy to start over again. But it would be totally incorrect and intolerant to salt, for the subject is notable. There seems to be some animus against his view, but WP does not base an article on agreement with the subjects theology. An attempt to show why he should not be covered because banned in some countries shows rather why he should, for it highlights the opposition some of his teaching has received. DGG 23:47, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

• Keep but stubify. I suppose this guy has some followers therefore he probably rates an article. The current article is an insult. Cut it back to two declarative sentences (or one) and let someone write a short neutral article as befitting the person's likely marginal notability. If keeping the article in line proves too difficult, the stub can be protected and other protective measures taken. Herostratus 20:43, 16 June 2007 (UTC)
  • I like this idea and will volunteer to stubify it myself upon close, if nobody objects...— Scientizzle 15:53, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

Comment: There appears to be an effort by one user[2] to make sure there is Wikipedia coverage of this individual by the repetitive creation of new articles on him, using marginally different variations of the name. This user created five such articles so far, all now speedily deleted. There is a "profession of faith" from the same user also appearing on the talk page of the subject article, and similar statements by others. Given the persistence of the followers, enforcement of policies requiring encyclopaeic content will require some effort. Kablammo 21:52, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

• Soak the wood with gas, but wait a few days before tossing the match. If this article is still a glass-eyed proselytization rant on the 20th, char-broil it.--Mike18xx 02:23, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
• Very weak keep per DGG. But note there is no shortage of SPAs promoting this imam and his foundation - see Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Mehdi Foundation International and the MfD for its creator's user page. Resurgent insurgent 12:34, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
• Weak keep I suppose that, if the opposition from the Pakistani government that he has faced is well sourced, we could have an article on him; surely such sources would state that he was a religious leader of a non-standard religious group. Nevertheless, we must ensure that the article remains NPOV, and that any related articles are as well. Nyttend 13:00, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
• Comment I have drastically stubbified the article...I'm not too familiar with many of the ins, outs and what-have-yous of Islamic law, so I hope I've made a fair stub. I trimmed links and cats as well. — Scientizzle 16:46, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

Comment I consider the article much improved--it is now appropriate, & I urge re-visitng it to see the improvement. I note that the article on his group was deleted primarily as a hoax, because of their truly extraordinary belief that there is his image on the moon and the Black Stone--but it seems they do actually believe that. DGG 17:13, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

It's quite okay although I suppose first-timers to the article will be surprised why this guy is so disliked by the Pakistani govt. Resurgent insurgent 17:52, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

To me, personally, that seems a good reason to keep, too. AllGloryToTheHypnotoad 12:55, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

comment Lose the gold border around the pic, and it looks good.--Mike18xx 18:09, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

I can't do anything about the yellow border without actually modifying the picture (something I'm uninterested in doing). I suppose a little more information about the alleged crimes would be appropriate--I'll dig up something.

I've noticed there seems to be a broad edit war between two separate factions of Shahi disciples, each promoting a different website. Anyone have more info? — Scientizzle 00:12, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

• keep: DGG has already offered to clean up the article. I'd say if he's banned in Pakistan, that makes him notable by virtue of the fact the government cares enough to ban him. However, I'd suggest DGG locks the page against new users - this page might need to be on a watch list to ensure followers don't re-introduce a COI problem. AllGloryToTheHypnotoad 02:03, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
• Note: This debate has been included in the list of Islam-related deletions. -- John Vandenberg 03:23, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
• Keep notable per numerous sources.--Sefringle^Talk 03:25, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

I take this opportunity to thank all WP members who had been very helpful for me. My article has been drastically stubbified, however, I am of the view that this article should contain complete information about His Holiness Gohar Shahi. The current version of the article doesn’t state much about him, however, I would like to request the administration of WP to kindly allow me to provide you a complete profile of His Holiness Gohar Shahi, I will leave decision at you whether you will ad that into this article or not as I don’t want to violate the policies of WP.

Moreover, the present article depicts negative image of His Holiness Gohar Shahi for its readers. Let me tell you that His Holiness Riaz Ahmed Gohar Shahi is our Imam and we are proud to be his followers. As you must be aware the religious situation in Pakistan, fundamentalist and extremists have a very strong lobby and the Pakistani blasphemy Law is one of the instrument which can easily used against innocent and hundreds of people of different sects and religion have been brutally ruined and thousands of families have been suffered because of misuse of blasbhymy law, same was done with His Holiness Riaz Ahmed Gohar Shahi. So many false cases were filed against His Holiness Gohar Shahi and his followers as an attempt to stop the holy mission of His Holiness Riaz Ahmed Gohar Shahi.

His Holiness Riaz Ahmed Gohar Shahi has hundred thousands of followers in Pakistan and around the globe. If you want I can provide you the evidence of the fact. Because of the teachings of His Holiness Riaz Ahmed Gohar Shahi, which is for all humanity without any discrimination of cast, creed or religion, he was invited by almost all Muslim sects and non-Muslim religion to deliver speech and bless them with the divine love of God. But the Pakistani religious extremists targeted him because of the teachings of His Holiness Riaz Ahmed Gohar Shahi because people of all sects and religion have started to become the followers of His Holiness and the so-called Islamic clergy was afraid that His Holiness Gohar Shahi’s follower will become uncountable soon because the teachings of His Holiness Riaz Ahmed Gohar Shahi were attracting everyone we speedily. Regarding the images of His Holiness Riaz Ahmed Gohar Shahi in the Moon, Sun, Black Stone and many other sacred places, please be informed that these sacred signs show that the God is with Gohar Shahi. The images are very clearly visible and everybody can see the images of Gohar Shahi especially in the Moon and the black stone of Kaa’aba. In fact we have appealed to Government of Pakistan as well to investigate this matter and bring the truth before the public.

I would like to further inform you that www.goharshahi.com doesn’t belong to His Holiness Gohar Shahi, which is being operated by Mehdi Foundation a self-made platform of anti-gohar elements. In the light of aforesaid facts may I request you to kindly limited the rights to amend the article on His Holiness Gohar Shahi.

In last thank you all for continuous help and support and look forward to an affirmative reply on above.

Regards, --سگِ گوھرشاہی 06:43, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedia is not a vehicle for advertisement--including religious beliefs--so I am skeptical of attempts to provide a "complete profile" of Shahi. In fact, if the profile is anything like the previous version of this article, I can guarantee that it will only end up looking like my stub version in short order. This is an encyclopedia that seeks neutral coverage of notable subjects, not propaganda (for or against). Inclusion of small, cited (from reliable sources, please), biographical facts may be appropriate, but any attempt by any editor to turn this article into sycophantic flattery or malicious disparagement will be reverted. Please understand this: the dedication of editors to maintaining a neutral point-of-view may be preventing you from painting the most favorable picture of your Imam, but it will also prevent his apparently numerous enemies from creating a more negative image... — Scientizzle 16:02, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

• Keep - Notability and context are asserted.Bakaman 20:01, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.