Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Germany 1 England 5 (2001)

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result of the debate was keep. Y.Ichiro (会話|+|投稿記録|メール) 17:51, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Germany 1 England 5 (2001)

Listing here because it has an AfD template on it. I gather that there is a notability concern, but I don't have an opinion on the matter. iMeowbot~Meow 15:23, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

• Delete I was going to include the word "weak" before the word "delete" because there is so much info on the game, but no matter how long the article is, the game is still pretty non-notable. It was a World Cup qualifier (not even an actual World Cup game) that did not directly lead to England qualifying; even if qualification had been the direct result of this game, England didn't even make the semifinals for this World Cup, much less win it. The game had no particularly spectacular qualities- hell, it wasn't even close. The article is also highly POV, written entirely from the British perspective. Thus, the game doesn't really have any notability, and thus, shouldn't really have a WP article. -- Kicking222 15:48, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
• Delete — Well I'm a football/soccer fan, but I have a difficult time seeing the notability of individual matches except in a few cases. I can see a case for World Cup final games and European Cup final matches (e.g. 2006 UEFA Champions League Final), but qualifier games? It's a bit much, regardless of the result. Perhaps a summary paragraph could be added to Football World Cup 2002 (qualification UEFA). — RJH (talk) 15:50, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
• Keep This was a remarkable result that impacted on both the German and English football cultures. It cannot be included in the articles of the national teams bcause it would unbalance them. BlueValour 16:04, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment If this result really did impact both cultures, the article makes absolutely no claim of such (aside from a slight amount of POV material). The article itself claims that England had beaten Germany at Euro 2000, less than 14 months prior, so this couldn't be such a spectacular upset. Germany's team was obviously not particularly demoralized, as they were the World Cup runners-up. Meanwhile, England's team couldn't have been particularly boosted, as they still only reached the quarterfinals. In hindsight, it's rather obvious that much more was made of this match than it should have been. As far as "unbalancing" the national teams' articles... well, this article is already quite unbalanced. -- Kicking222 16:16, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
    • It was a spectacular upset. If you don't know that beating Germany 5-1 in Germany is spectacular, you can't know anything much about real football. CalJW 05:38, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Added comment Judging by his/her edit summary, this user is also British, which could easily skew his/her view on this article. (Note that I'm not claiming that it does, but that it could.) -- Kicking222 16:17, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
    • You're American, and that may skew your view on anything to do with foobtall. Should we start ignoring the views of all Americans on the significance of any baseball topic? CalJW 05:39, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
• Weak keep as part of the England and Germany football rivalry, where its context and importance are explained better. Kusma (討論) 16:26, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Considering a merge? Punkmorten 21:16, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
• Delete It's here because England doesn't win against Germany all that frequently. I would say merge into England and Germany football rivalry, but it's really far too wordy too merge. A footnote to history that gives England fans the warm fuzzy, but really not that notable and deep in POV territory. ~ trialsanderrors 17:00, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

• Keep. "Notability" sucks. It's historical information that someone's gotta find interesting. It's verifiable in principle, but needs a few sources. David L Rattigan 19:24, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
• Merge to England and Germany football rivalry. This match is not important or legendary enough to have its own entry, but the content can be useful. Punkmorten 21:16, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
• Merge, but rewrite per punkmorten, important game but you can say that about most WC qualifying matches. --Eivind^t@c 00:17, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Name one other World Cup qualifying match that England played that's half as famous as this one. There simply isn't one, not even those which did lead immediately to qualification. CalJW 05:41, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
• Keep The number of people who can remember this game is probably in the tens of millions. It is probably the second most famous victory in the history of the England national team after the 1966 World Cup final. CalJW 05:35, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
• Keep A legendary game. Bits of commentary from it are played regularly on BBC Radio 5 Live. Landolitan 06:46, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
• Merge, known but not legendary. MaxSem 06:51, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
• Keep This match is remembered by a nation years after the event, which is more than can be said of many Wikipedia article topics. Olborne 09:14, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
• Keep I would like to ask all the Americans who are voting delete to try to understand that this match is far more important in the history of English sport than each individual Superbowl is in the history of American sport, and every single one of them has an article. If this is deleted, I would ask the administrator who deletes it to delete all the articles about individual Superbowls at the same time. Piccadilly 19:11, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
• Keep Referenced regularly by English commentators and fans even five-years later Robert Mercer 22:25, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
• Merge or Delete This is a silly article that will not attract much interest from anyone except English football fans but it is an important event for some and perhaps the section at the England-Germany football rivalry can be expanded. If the article stays then the name needs to be changed as the score is not enough to identify when or at what level of competition this happened and isn't a decent name for an encyclopedia article. Perhaps World Cup Qualifier (England, Germany 2001) --Westee 22:33, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
  • If we deleted all the articles which appeal to smaller constituencies than "English football fans" how many would that be what? 1 million articles? 1.1 million? And that's ignoring the Germans. Twittenham 15:44, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

It is a silly article IN MY OPINION, not exactly something an encyclopedia can do without is it. But I leaned more to the merge option than anything else. The lack of a decent title alone makes me sceptical about this being some pivotal moment in pop or sports history. As far as I am concerned it should be merged into the section on the England-Germany football rivalry. Despite it significance for some English people I really don't see much for a single article, there are literally thousands of football games at the national, club, or amateur level that have great sentimental value for some group somewhere and this is just one of them and nothing else. This article should go to England-Germany football rivaly or maybe even a brief mention in world cup 2002 article.Sorry, but really if you take away feelings of national pride there isn't much to make to discuss here except for one normal qualifying match to a championship --Westee 13:41, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

• Keep in some form Can't decide between a merge or straight keep, although would probably lean towards a merge. Certainly this game had a significant impact on English sport, culturally and psychologically. I wouldn't be against a rename and certainly a general tidy up of the article is warranted. Badgerpatrol 00:35, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
• Keep In my opinion it it's the nomination that is "silly" Westee, when Wikipedia is full of pop culture fancruft. This wouldn't be found in EB, but it is way above the level of notability that Wikipedia usually accepts. Twittenham 15:44, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
• Keep This was a very important match in English footballing history, and is still available to buy as an indivual match on DVD. Clothing stores produce t-shirts with a replica of the scoreboard on. I believe a whole book about the match is in the works. It's more 'notable' than around 50% of the stuff on Wikipedia. Tim 16:06, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
• Keep This was one of the best results in the history of English football and is still talked about to this day as the greatest of the past 40 years. "This was a very important match in English footballing history, and is still available to buy as an indivual match on DVD. Clothing stores produce t-shirts with a replica of the scoreboard on. I believe a whole book about the match is in the works. It's more 'notable' than around 50% of the stuff on Wikipedia." Is my 100% opinion. 195.93.21.3
• Strong keep This is the only occaision that I can recall where a major football power lost at home by four goals in a competitive match. Not only notable but possibly unique. TerriersFan 23:45, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
• Keep as a notable exception to Lineker's Law of England-Germany football matches. Angus McLellan (Talk) 09:10, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
• Week Keep or Merge to England/Germany football rivalry; I was responsible for the article in its current state, although I only did that becasue someone had put a rather poor article there in the first place. --Robdurbar 09:41, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
• Strong keep This is one of the greatest and most significant matches in soccer history, well worthy of its own article. For those who don't seem to know, the high scoreline for a match between two strong footballing nations is an extremely rare event. I find it an outrage that its worthiness is even being questioned, and the pro-delete comments are preposterous, particularly the description of it being "non-notable". The match is still discussed in the bars of England and Germany to this day. Neither does the article justify the comment of "silly" - it is appropriately titled and well-written. I would question the impartiality and policy of the whole encyclopedia should this unfortunate unreasonable and provocative proposal be carried out. Instead I look forward to the degrading "scheduled for deletion" banner being removed pdq and this amazing soccer encounter being rightfully immortalised without further question. Headshaker, 18:45, 18 June 2006

Whatthe hell?? Why on Earth would this be considered one of the most important matches in football history. Now that claim I have never ever heard before. It was a qualifier last time I checked and neither Germany's worst defeat nor England's highest win and considering Germany went on to be second in the actual tournament it certainly can not be called a turning point in German football or the beginning of a spectacular winning streak for England. This match has been largely forgotten outside of England, mostly because of relative insignificance outside of that country. And beleive me mate this match is not regurlarly discussed in bars in Germany, now that I can guarantee you. One of the greatest matches in football history... uh no. A relatively average qualifying match that is celebrated by some England fans like an actual world cup victory; yes! --Westee 11:27, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.