Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/German organized crime

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result of the nomination was delete all. Jaranda ^{wat's sup} 20:55, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] German organized crime

Also nominating for deletion:

• Arthur L. Baker
• Baker Crime Family
• Baker Entourage
• Charles Darius
• Deutsche-Italiano Alliance
• Frank M. Baker
• Michael C. Darius

Can anyone find any verification that any of these people and crime organizations exist? I'm guessing the last sentence of German organized crime mentions the only real person in any of this... Weregerbil 08:15, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

• Delete. Please also add the following. GeorgeStepanek\^talk 08:19, 10 July 2006 (UTC
  • Archangelo Moratti, alias Arthur Moriarty
  • Anthony Crisafulli
  • Michael C. Darius, Jr
  • Jeffery Harrison. )
• Delete per nom. Dionyseus 08:20, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

As an historian at Oswego State University (New York) I can assure you that the FBI actively investigates the Deutsche-Italiano Alliance. No connection has ever been made to these people to suggest that the crime organization does exist, but remember, J. Edgar Hoover denied the existence of organized crime in America for over 50 years. Check the U.S. Census records, these people exist. Don't forget that Al Capone was never proven to be a gangster, but we don't delete his page do we? User: Jgarrison

Comment So do you have any verifiable sources for the information in the articles? Without reliable sources the articles are pretty much guaranteed to go away. Weregerbil 08:57, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

• Delete per nom, and GeorgeStepan. I can't speak for the FBI, but I'm finding zilch on the "Deutsche-Italiano Alliance", or Frank L. Baker, or Arthur L. Baker, et al. I note the only external link goes nowhere, and a search for the alleged "Washington County War" only turns up the Old West story about Billy the Kid. Sure, the people probably exist - with a name like Baker? Good thing the gang isn't named "Smith"... - but the sweeping generalizations and lack of citations speaks hoax, or even an attack page. And yeah, Al Capone was never "proven" to be a mobster, but there are lots of newspaper articles and bios identifying him as such. Tychocat 09:45, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

I believe I overstepped myself, in light of User: Jgarrison's stated qualifications, and I apologize. My point remains, however, there are sweeping generalizations made and events reported in the article, without any verification or sourcing that I can find. Tychocat 10:01, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

• Delete all per nom; even if everything is true, has not garnered sufficient public attention to be deemed more notable than any other group of criminals. Let us not empty the population of our jails onto the pages of Wikipedia! bd2412 T 15:27, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
• Delete all per nom. I was wondering when these would come up for deletion I got some of them speeded but it looks like some slipped through. Whispering 19:37, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
• Delete All per nom --Nick Y. 20:30, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

Comment A search of the FBI website turns up 66 references to the Mafia, 17 for "Al Capone", two for "al Queda" (keeping in mind the myriad possible transliterations into the english alphabet), and zero for "Baker Crime Family", "Arthur L. Baker", "Frank M. Baker" or "Deutsche-Italiano Alliance" et al. I get a couple of hits for "Arthur Baker", he's an FBI Special Agent. I would not expect the FBI to publicly discuss ongoing cases, as one possible explanation for the names not appearing on their website. Tychocat 15:19, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

I live in Adirondack Park, New York, about 45 minutes away from Granville. I don't know anyone personally from this area, but I can say this much, these people do exist. When you live this close you hear some of the stories of the acts of violence that these people have committed. It would be an atrocity if you delete this article, for the accusations stated therein are true, as true as many of the Bigfoot or Champ stories are.

Without reliable proof, we can't keep them. 68.39.174.238 02:44, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

Comment - The latest edit to the article adds a new name, Klaus Speer. This person appears to be an actual crime figure in Germany, but the citation itself fails to verify any connection to United States. The material on Speer in this article is also copyvio from the cited weblink here. There are two sentences added, one which states a link to U.S. organized crime (no verification again), and a second which alleges Speer was the inspiration for a movie character (no citation given). Lastly, I rechecked for a "Michael Darius" in the NYPD, and found 27 Ghits, all for a character by the same name and occupation, from the novel "A Mourning in Autumn" by Harker Moore. Google turns up nothing, still, for "Michael C. Darius", beyond this article. Tychocat 07:08, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

To the User Tychocat, I'm not sure if you think you can outsmart everyone, but I have read this article. If you search for a person in the NYPD, you are searching in the New York City Police Department, not New York State. I believe that you are aware of this, but were bothered after you had found out that the author has a degree which says that he knows more about history than a lot of other people. I never read that book, I'll bet that you did. However, if Michael Darius' occupation was as a New York City Police Detective, then he really doesn't have the same occupation as the man alledged in the article, does he? If you want this article to go away, I suggest you stop trying to outsmart a Ph. D. User: Mike Freed

Comment - The new material just added by yourself nominally lists citations, but as a scholar you ought to know the proper format for a book citation is to list the entire title, author, year of publication, and publisher, which would allow for proper verification. Just listing the last name of the author and the year of publication as you have done, doesn't lend itself to any fact-checking, which you should also know. I've also done some checks in Google Scholar, and cannot find Beuys (1967), Kollmar (1974), Busch (1992), Boettcher (1975), Steinke (1982), or Mätzler (1968). Fatigue set in before I could complete a search for all of the citations. But, no one by the name of Boettcher had any scholarly publication regarding crime listed in Google Scholar in 1975, likewise last name of Steinke in 1982, or Mätzler in 1968. I welcome a check of my findings so far by any experienced editor, and if I'm wrong I will cheerfully change my nominations. Tychocat 09:36, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

• Delete them all per nom. and Tychocat's research, which has found no references for any of this information. Clearly a hoax or someone's fever-induced hallucination. ---Charles 04:47, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.