Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Gay square dance

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was Keep. Eluchil404 04:26, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Gay square dance

Gay square dance (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) – (View log)

I think there must be a Rule 34.1 of IRL: There's a "gay" version of it, no exceptions. So do we really really need articles about things like gay square dance, gay weightlifting, gay parkour, gay aviation, gay high energy physics... - ∅ (∅), 12:51, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

I am also nominating the following related page because of the same concern (and because this is even less notable):

International Association of Gay Square Dance Clubs (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs)
  • Note: This debate has been included in the list of sexuality and gender-related deletions. —Becksguy 11:00, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep all I'm not gay, nor have I been to a square dance in the last 20 years, but this is notable enough. I disagree with the argument that this is simply a variation on something that everyone does. Unlike weightlifting, parkour (?), aviation or even high energy physics, squaredancing requires a large group of people no matter what their orientations may be. You might as well argue that a gay and lesbian pride parade is just a parade with the word "gay" attached to it. This has events, clubs, and a long history... and apparently, a large following. Notable enough for me. Mandsford 14:52, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete/merge No reason to have a specific article for this. If gay squaredance is sufficiently different from normal squaredance, then we can add a note under squaredance and maybe redirect from here. Lundse 15:25, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep - reliable sources attesting to the notability of the topics exist, for instance here and here, and a bit more here. Otto4711 16:16, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep, this is a widespread variation with reliable sources. The point is that "gay parkour" would not be appreciably different from "straight" parkour (or whatever), while square dancing conventions must be violated in certain obvious ways to be a gay activity. --Dhartung | Talk 18:12, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
    • But why not make a section under square dance? Surely there is not all that many things to say which are interesting for an encyclopedia? I am not arguing this does not exist or that it is not a notable variation - I just do not agree that it has to have its own article. I could be wrong, though, maybe there is enough to write on this as a social phenomenon (I just have my doubts)... Lundse 18:24, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
  • If you agree that the variation is notable but don't believe it should have its own article, then the proper course would have been to place merge tags on the articles and work it out editorially. Otto4711 18:47, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
    • Uhm - I did not open this AfD... So "proper course" was to state my point of view here. But you are right that I should change my vote to merge...Lundse 20:56, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep As per Dhartung, this has to be significantly different from "straight square dance" and has been around for a long time, and is notable per Otto4711. Accounting4Taste 18:28, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Merge to Square dancing. Is there non-gay squaredancing? "Honor your partner, honor your corner, allemand left, do-si-do." Edison 21:35, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
I also think it would be best to merge this with the square dancing article. Nlm1515 22:06, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Strong Keep Square dancing is a partner and group dance activity with its roots in conservative cultures and was utilized not only as a social activity but to foster traditional hetero courtship and rituals. Gay square dancing is unique and separate from the original form and has developed its own customs, traditions and protocols. Although at one point it could have been merged into a larger article about square dancing it would most likely be swiftly annexed onto it's own. Benjiboi 11:22, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
Keep also International Association of Gay Square Dance Clubs (thought there were two AfDs to comment so my apologies for double posts). This international organization has 80 clubs and some 20 years of history? Seems notable enough just as if there were a group of the same size and scope with some other defining commonality. Benjiboi 11:29, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep. Demonstrated notability. • Lawrence Cohen 16:29, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment Please read WP:N then show what the "multiple independent and reliable sources" are with "substantial coverage" of the subject. I see no sources in the article itself. Some are cited here. The one from the NY Times says "the moves are the same" which means that rather than "gay square dancing" this is "square dancing by gays". The article itself says that these factors are seen in square dancing by (nongay) youth dancers. I also see no meaningful distinction between gay and non-gay square dancing, other than subjective and unsupported claims of "higher energy level," younger participants, changing of partners, and casual clothing. This does not justify a separate article; it just shows that gay people participate in a common recreation. Similarly showing that gay people do similar activities to non-gay people would not justify "Gay roofing" or "Gay lawn mowing" articles, even if they did it with "greater energy" and in more casual clothing. Edison 21:02, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
  • You are gravely mischaracterizing the first source that I listed, which is an substantial piece about both the phenomenon and the Association. That piece touches on such issues as resistance to gays participating in straight square dancing clubs, how the moves are different than in straight square dancing and how some gay square dancers risk discharge from the military under DADT for wanting to participate. Otto4711 21:34, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Strong Keep Comment Edison, I would agree that there is no need for articles such as gay roofing, gay lawn mowing, or gay aviation. There the assumption of heterosexuality is not central to the activity, since the primary purpose is to perform useful work. But the assumption of heterosexuality is the essence of certain social activities, such as square dancing or school proms. These are social courtship activities, or derived from courtship rituals, that are based on having a partner of the opposite sex. The comments and sources provided by User:Otto4711 and the comments by User:Benjiboi are particularity pertinent and thoughtful here. As is the comment by User:Mandsford referring to a gay parade as just a parade with gays, using your logic, if I understand it correctly. Please reread the comments and references, especially the article by Smiley, as I see them strongly supporting the notability of and rationale for a meaningful distinction between each square dancing context. It isn't just energy or clothes. Thank you. - Becksguy 01:12, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep I strongly agree with Edison, Gay Square Dancing is very different from Gay Aviation et all. The article clearly needs improvement, but I believe it could be a valuable article at some point. Kootenayvolcano 06:10, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
    • CommentSorry Becksguy, it is you (above) who I am agreeing with, not Edison, as I stated earlier- I mistyped myself. Kootenayvolcano 21:00, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep This is meaningful, as stated above, and I would agree with Becksguy that in general activities otherwise based on conventional heterosexuality might be expected to have significant variation. I'm glad some real sources were found.DGG (talk) 18:56, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep as notable, verifiably large cultural phenomenon, and with reliable sources, above, and as "dog bites man" situation per Becksguy, Edison, and Benjiboi. Bearian 00:55, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep very notable Notable and also the difference between Gay Square Dance and Square Dance is also different than the difference between gay weight lifting and regular weightliftitng because the gay doesnt refer to the person doing it it refers to the originaters of the style members of The [IAGSDC] because a gay person can do regular Square Dancing and a straight person can do Gay Square Dancing so its talking about a major style of dance not a type of person doing a dance --Shimonnyman 03:50, 12 September 2007 (UTC) edit: 19:31, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Tongue in cheek comment - Why don't we redirect it to morris dance! - ∅ (∅), 07:16, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment: Thank you for adding a bit of needed humor. That's funny! We get too serious sometimes. :-) — 07:26, 12 September 2007 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Becksguy (talk • contribs)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.