Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Garou Tribes (Werewolf:The Apocalypse)

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was Keep. —Quarl ^(talk) 2007-02-25 04:30Z

[edit] Garou Tribes (Werewolf:The Apocalypse)

Garou Tribes (Werewolf:The Apocalypse) (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) – (View log)

Essentially, this is pure gamecruft of a {{inuniverse}} style. No assertion of real world significance, merely a plot summary and/or a game guide. Zero sources whatsoever. Mainly original research. MER-C 11:19, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

• Agree with nominator. Moreover, it seems to be lifted from [1]. Delete. Also consider deleting images incorrectly marked as logos. Conscious 12:08, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment. Could you please specify how this is "lifted" from that website (maybe some quoted text)? I checked a couple of sentences and there doesn't seem to be any copyvio. Thanks, Black Falcon 18:36, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
• Delete - Nareklm 12:09, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
• Delete Weak Keep. There's an argument to be made for notability of the entire White Wolf game series clumped under the title World of Darkness if for no other reason because one of the elements of that game was the source material for the Fox Television/Aaron Spelling-produced TV series Kindred: The Embraced. However, none of that matters for this article as copyvio trumps all other considerations. -Markeer 13:39, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

Comment. Do you have anything to back up a copxvio claim ? I can't see any information that is beyond the usual terms of a summary or description.Heinrich k 21:47, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

I took the above "lifted" comment at face value to be honest, I haven't looked through in detail, will do so now. (tempus fugit) >> doesn't seem to be an exact matchup, my apologies for not investigating before my earlier comment. Changed my opinion to a weak keep above, but the article needs work, most notably to assert notability. Editor below makes a specious argument regarding notability to those who wish to know more about the game world, which to me is only true if there were not several other websites that provide similar information. My Keep was based on notability of the subject matter as source material for numerous fictional offshoots, and would suggest the article be tightened up and better cited. -Markeer 23:23, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

Well, while there are fan pages around, wikipedia should host information, since the information is consense of at least all those authors that added to the page. Disagreements are discussed on the discussion page. Fanpages often host wrong or non-objectiv information. As for lifted information: The tribes represent archtypes therefore all serious pages about the tribes will tell the same. But that's the same with articles about movies or TV shows, their information is also always found on other pages, too. As for notability, tribes are a huge aspect in the complex game world. To properly describe the game a desccription of the tribes is vital. Adding the info into the main article would decrease readability. That's why the article should be kept.Heinrich k 20:21, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

• Keep The World of Darkness RPG settings are reasonably notable on their own, describing the basics of what is a fairly major component in making a character of the RPG and a definitive factor in the world is highly reasonable. I'm not saying this article is well done, or that there isn't some better way to do it, but pending some good argument to merge, it's a keep. Individual articles on the tribes are another matter. FrozenPurpleCube 23:38, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

Do not delete - The notablility of the article could be argued about, but there are different point of view to the topic. While the information in the article might not be of notable intrest to most humans on earth, there are individuals that are intrested in learning the basics about the game and they should be able to find reliable information at wikipedia. Just as there are articles about characters of TV series and movies and Star Trek technology or other fictional subjects. The article's information is vital for those who want to increase their understanding of the Werewolf: The Apocalypse game. Sources (at least on inconclusive information) arn't currently added in the main article but can be found in the discussion page. In addition the information in the article is a combined from various out-of-print books, so the informations availability is limited, and therefore should be available in wikipedia. In addition the article's introduction and title clearly marks the article's information as part of a fictional game scenario, so there is no need to find fault with the article's tone. The arcticle is in fact a very neutral text about a fictional topic, marked as clearly fictional. If necessary source information will be added over time. While it might be right, that article is currently lacking of real world relations, the article is part the necessary information about the Werewolf: The Apocalypse game, and moving all information back into the main article would greatly disimprove readability. In addition all information was moved together into this article from seperate articles for better maintenance, so the article is vital target of many redirects. Heinrich k 20:04, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

I added a paragraph, on how the game benefits of the existence of tribes and what themes the tribes add to the game. Therefore the article has now real world connection. Will detail this further in the future. In addition, some source information to the various tribes was added. I'll increase this source information in the future, too. Heinrich k 20:55, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

• Keep most of these seem to have their own articles, but it seems reasonable to have an article listing them all with a summary for quick comparison. Andrew Lenahan - Starblind 20:49, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
• Delete per copyvio only; would gladly support recreation with legally used text (and a better fit with Wikipedia style). The Garou game universe is complex enough that, if we're going to cover it at all, a page like this is warranted. Not much different from a character listing for a game with a large cast. ShaleZero 21:33, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

• No evidence of copyvio given; changing to keep per stated reasons. ShaleZero 21:35, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

• Keep. The "World of Darkness" fictional universes are notable of their own and this article supplements the main WoD articles. I do agree that it should be better sourced (and that's what {{unreferenced}} is for), however it is not original research (see the source at the bottom of the article). -- Black Falcon 00:54, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
• Keep. The Garou tribes are a rather notable part of a rather notable game franchise and are frequently discussed in the games; all remaining objections (esp. lack of in-universe/rl separation) are a matter of cleanup, not deletion. At worst, this can be split, merged, fluffied and/or deloused. --wwwwolf (barks/growls) 10:27, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

Speedy Keep per norm. Jtrainor 15:38, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

• Keep The article being written in an in-universe style is NOT a reason for deletion, and neither is "cruft" of any sort. I don't imagine that finding sources would be hard... There've been quite a few reviews from notable RPG sites which would be applicable here. Cheers, Lankybugger 15:48, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.