Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Freemasonry in Russia

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was Merge to History of Freemasonry. Since I know nothing of the topic and there is apparently a whole Wikiproject of people who do, I'll turn this into a redirect, leaving the history behind it so that project members (and other intrepid editors) may take at will from the old content. — Scientizzle 21:28, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Freemasonry in Russia

Freemasonry in Russia (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) – (View log)

This article has no reliable sources, no context, and gives little to no solid information on the subject. Most of the external links are personal sites ("Obolensky" is a pseudonym for the owner/author of the site the book is on, and the other stuff is mostly on Geocities type sites. The California Freemason article says nothing of value to the history of the article, except to underline that no one really knows about the subject. MSJapan 15:23, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

  • Merge to Freemasonry, not enough info to substantiate separate article, however that little bit can be included in main article --sumnjim talk with me·changes 15:33, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete as per nom ... some of the information might be copied into History of Freemasonry but better sources would need to be found. Blueboar 15:51, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
  • Note: This debate has been included in the list of Russia-related deletions. -- -- pb30<talk> 16:08, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep Topic is notable and a lack of quality isn't sufficient reason to delete. This article seems to be part of a series and could definitely be improved. Tagging and contacting the freemasonry project would be more constructive. Malc82 21:42, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment - That's where I found it. We have no sources or resources for this, which is why I tagged it. MSJapan 23:03, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment - I'm not so sure that this is a notable topic. Freemasonry spread throughout Europe during the 1700s and the fact that it was instituted in Russia is nothing special. That is was then banned by the Soviets is not all that notable either (just about everything associated with the aristocracy was supressed). Malc82 says this seems to be part of a series... it isn't (the Freemasonry Project discourages "Freemasonry In <country>" articles because we don't consider them notable.) Again, if there are better sources, this might be worth a brief mention in the History of Freemasonry article, but is not notable enough for an article on it's own Blueboar 15:48, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
Comment I notified the Wikiproject about this AfD 4 days ago. Since this garnered no response at all, I strike my "Keep" opinion and remain neutral. I still think that an encyclopedic article could be written about this topic, but since nobody seems to intend to improve this article this may not be enough of an argument. Malc82 23:00, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep It needs expanding by someone who knows more history than me, but, not that even masterpieces of fiction are prime sources for Wikipedia, the place of freemasonry in the novel "War and Peace" shows that Russian freemasonry was unique in being a left-wing group, in contrast to the right-wing leanings of Western freemasonry. This is interesting, and the article needs expansion, not deletionDaverotherham 21:28, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
    • Comment - The following is my own original research, and thus not suitable for including in the article... but... knowing the history of Freemasonry in general (and in Europe in particular), I can address Daverotherham's comments. There were really two different forms of Freemasonry in Russia. There was what I will call English style Freemasonry... non-political, purely fraternal, with a philosophical, charitable and moral focus. This form of Freemasonry was favored by the aristocracy and upper-middle classes throughout Europe. Then there is French style Freemasonry... highly political, anti-clerical, with a focus on radical egalitarianism. This tended to attract the bourgouise intelegencia and (to a lesser extent) the working classes in Europe. This is the Freemasonry that Tolstoy is writing about. It is more tied to France than to Russia (actually, this form of Masonry is more tied to the various revolutionary movements of the 1840s than to 1812... Tolstoy is a bit anacronistic in how he uses the fraternity in "War and Peace".) But back to Russia... In Russia, you had both forms. Neither was really liked by the government (whether Tsarist and Soviet), and the fratenity was actively surpressed. During the Soviet era, what small footholds the fraternity had were completely wiped out. All records were destroyed. References to it were banned. Thus, while we know that Freemasonry did have an on-again off-again existance in Russia prior to the soviet era, we have no reliable sources to use in writing about it. Yes, this would be an interesting topic to have as an article... but anything we might write would be pure speculation. Malc82 did not get any response to his notification at the Project Page... not out of indifference, but because the editors who form the project agree with deletion: because 1) there are no sources, and 2) one of our project goals is to cut back on "Freemasonry in <location>" articles. Blueboar 19:45, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
  • Thanks for the clarification. Malc82 21:26, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so that consensus may be reached.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Spartaz Humbug! 23:06, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.