Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/FLAME

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep and cleanup. Arkyan • ^(talk) 20:28, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] FLAME

FLAME (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) – (View log)

This article does not meet WP:MUSIC standards. NoFew articles link to this article. It contains no independently sourced information. While the artist has been nominated for an award it has not won any, and the nomination itself does not meet notability standards. Idioma 18:44, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

• KeepI do not agree that this article should be deleted. You state that no articles are linked to this article. Clearly, this is inaccurate, as there are several citations to the Cross Movement Website linked to this article. Although this article is not expansive, it is quite informative and should not be deleted because it allegedly does not fall into Wikipedia guidelines. I believe instead this article should be nominated for being cleaned up and expanded. To completely delete it is uncalled for.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Drean20 (talk • contribs).

Welcome to Wikipedia, your contributions are welcome here. What it means to have an article link to here is to have a wikipedia article link to the page. While there are a few, most of them are also being considered for deletion, or are miss linked. The artist and his record companies websites do not count as reliable independent sources. Please read WP:MUSIC and WP:BIO to find out about establishing notability. After notability is established, these sites can be used for sources. Finally, please remember to sign your posts by typing ~~~~ after your posts, so keeping track of the discussion is easier. Idioma 00:14, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

• I would say that nomination for a Song of the Year in the GMA Dove Awards (Christian music's version of the Grammy) is notable, placing his Song in the Top 5 Christian Rap songs in the country for the year. Confirmed with a google search of GMA Dove Flame. This at the minimum satisfies #9 - Has won or placed in a major music competition. Also, I've found 3 sources of news:

Paid (Google news earch turned up context, pages ask for login/payment): [1] [2]

Free (and notable): [3]

The notable thing about that last article is this:

"Despite an emerging national audience, gospel rap has no platinum-selling breakout artist -- and certainly nothing on par with holy rock & rollers Switchfoot or P.O.D. (Payable On Death). But this might change soon. Artists such as Grits have sold hundreds of thousands of albums under the auspices of Nashville-based Gotee records. Another top label, New Jersey's Cross Movement Records, includes local artist Flame on its roster. Flame has moved some 30,000 albums, tours as far away as Alaska and has one of his songs blasting on Busch Stadium's loudspeakers each time Albert Pujols comes to bat."

Three things this says... First, it's an apples to oranges comparison to compare his record says to that of say, Jay Z. He's a big fish in a not quite so big pond. But, he qualifies for notability for his national touring of the Notability guidelines:

4. Has gone on an international concert tour, or a national concert tour in at least one large or medium-sized country,3 reported in reliable sources.

Also, A St. Louis newspaper is reporting that in their hometown stadium, Busch Stadium, a hometown player Albert Pujols plays his music over the stadium speakers every time he comes to bat. (Albert Pujols isn't some unknown player, his 2007 salary is over $12 million. From Wikipedia: Since his debut in 2001 through the 2006 season he leads the major leagues in RBI, runs, total bases and extra base hits, and is second in home runs and batting average. In other words, he's a star, so people are listening when he comes to bat.) So, there's also national airtime every time a game is on the radio or television, Flame's song is heard.

7. Has become the most prominent representative of a notable style or of the local scene of a city; note that the subject must still meet all ordinary Wikipedia standards, including verifiability.

Was notable enough that a newspaper commented on it.

10. Has performed music for a work of media that is notable

Some players (like wrestlers) are often known by their fans by their "theme song", and this is such a song by a top player of MLB.

But, notice, I'm not counting the article itself as being at the level of being notable. Under Wikipedia standards, it is not. However, it provides many facts that do rise to the level of notability. In total:

1. GMA Dove Awards nominee placing him in the top 5 of his genre. 2. Reported by a reliable source to tour nationally. 3. Is played several times per game to a stadium, radio, television audience of MLB. 4. For the genre of Christian Rap, he's a major representative, as recognized by the media and the GMA Dove association (the closest thing to an expert opinion on the matter). 5. Belongs to a label recognized as a "top label" for the genre (not up to Wikipedia standards for Indie Label notability, but in this genre, there aren't any "top labels" as defined by Wikipedia).

Now, honestly, I've never heard of the guy, nor listened to him. I followed the link here from Sabellianism where I was researching recently added info about his references to dynamic monarchianism (a part of Christian theology). And while the information added indicates that I would disagree on major points theologically with Mr. Gray, my research none the less shows that he is certainly notable in the Christian & Gospel music world.

I would also like to add a point of disagreement with the statement: "Being nominated for an award does not make an artist notable, they must actually with the award first." (S.I.C.)

Well, it certainly adds significantly to their notability. Those that have only been nominated (and never won) certainly display their "mere" nomination as an accomplishment by itself, because it is, be it an Oscar, a Grammy, or a Dove. Not winning doesn't make them "unnotable", and it certainly adds to their notability.

From the above data, I would not consider this page to be a vanity page for some random garage band. Further, if this page is removed, one might as well remove all Christian Rap artists because none have gone gold, and very few could top this artist. And, in that same train of thought, one would remove all artists of non-mainstream genres.

Don't know if I'd listen to him, and all these facts need to be added to this page in a nice format, but... Strong Keep -- DeWayne Lehman (talk • contribs) @ 06:26, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

Major music awards are different from major music competitions. Award shows do not place for one thing, you either win or you lose. While all the information that you have found is great the majority of it does not establish notability according to WP:MUSIC. However with the addition of the news paper source and the CCM magazine article, there would be multiple reliable independent sources, albeit just the minimum to count as multiple (just two). Its true that not winning an award does not make an artist non-notable, but that is why there are many more criteria and all one has to do is satisfy one of those criteria. Idioma 07:53, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

Ah, thank you for the move. For me, there is no one single thing, but a preponderance of lesser things. But, just playing devil's advocate here (was verifying claims for another page). And based on what I found, I would not revert the addition on sabellianism, because it shows that particular topic as still currently relevant. I'll keep an eye on this because the vote will impact whether or not to revert or reword the edit to sabellianism. -- DeWayne Lehman (talk • contribs) @ 09:43, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

• I was the one who made the reference to FLAME on the sabellianism article. I just found out that this was about to be deleted so I made some edits and added references to FLAME on other articles. His song, "Godhead", is my favorite song and it has intrigued me greatly to learn about modalistic monarchianism and dynamic monarchianism from a rapper so I thought that it was worthy of being added to the article. By the way, I added the information that DeWayne was talking about.Please KEEP Professor Davies 21:30, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

 Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so that consensus may be reached
 Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, If you have any questions, please contact me at my talk page. Ian Manka 13:51, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

• Keep and clean up. Seems like he's a new player in the field, but notability seems to just be there. Clean up the article big time and make it sound less like a press bio and more like an encyclopedic article. --Dennis The Tiger (Rawr and stuff) 19:53, 29 April 2007 (UTC)
• Keep, if nominated for a Dove award, this makes him notable. Corvus cornix 22:09, 29 April 2007 (UTC)
• Keep and cleanup. Jmlk17 05:15, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.