Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Eyüp Sabri Kartal

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result of the debate was delete. --Sam Blanning^(talk) 00:03, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Eyüp Sabri Kartal

The page was created by User:Eculum and is continuously updated by User:3210, both of whom are none other than the subject of the article, Eyüp Sabri Kartal. I believe that the page is essentially the vanity page of a non-notable figure. —Saposcat 06:03, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

• Delete per nom. —Khoikhoi 06:11, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
• Delete per nom. Only 66 results on Google. Kalani ^[talk] 06:16, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
• Delete per no. Thetruthbelow ^{Image:Wikipedia minilogo.gif(talk)} 06:34, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
• Keep. WP:BIO says that "political figures holding international, national or statewide/provincewide office or members of a national, state or provincial legislature" are notable. Look how many mayors of American cities have their own articles in Wikipedia - with about the same degree of importance like this politician. Of course the article should be rewritten in accordance with the Wikipedia style guidelines. --Ioannes Pragensis 07:28, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
• Delete. The governor certainly deserves an article--if it he is the governor. As it is, it triggers my patent nonsense detectors and certainly isn't encyclopedic as is.--Prosfilaes 07:46, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Weak Keep. This new article isn't great, but it works.--Prosfilaes 23:12, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete. Weeble-wobble. The position isn't high enough to meet WP:BIO.--Prosfilaes 21:36, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
• Delete Agree with Prosfilaeas. Though he might meet WP:BIO, the effort required to verify and clean-up this article isn't worth it.--Chaser (T) 08:17, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
• Delete The guy is "governor" of a subdistrict of Trabzon (Trabzon pop. = 900,000), so this is more a county prefect than a state governor, hence WP:NN. Also WP:AUTO, WP:VAIN, WP:SOCK. ~ trialsanderrors 08:57, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
• Keep. I think every managers bios should be in WP.Kaymakams defenetly shold be in WP for local historian sake.--3210 15:56, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

  Comment User:3210 is the subject of the article. ~ trialsanderrors 19:46, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

• Delete. The claim that he is a governer is unsourced and does not appear to be supported by a Google search. If proven, I will change my vote, though all of the Wikipedia-specific content should go anyway. Vizjim 15:26, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

  I can assure you that he is as claimed. For example, if you click on the external link and go to the bottom, you will find a newspaper clipping (from the local newspaper Günebakış) in which you see the phrase: "İlce Kaymakamı Eyüp Sabri Kartal", which is Turkish for "District Governor Eyüp Sabri Kartal". --Lambiam^Talk 19:37, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

• Keep. Not less notable than many US politicians who have their own Wikipedia pages. Remember WP:BIAS, please. --Lambiam^Talk 19:37, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
• Weak keep as above comments. Xyrael ^T 19:43, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
• Weak keep after rewrite. --Chaser (T) 21:35, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
• Weak delete, still sounds like vanity to me. --InShaneee 23:09, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
• Delete, not a significant figure. Also, people creating and maintaining articles about themselves is generally a bad idea.   /FunkyFly.talk_   23:40, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
• Delete per norm. --K a s h ^{Talk | email} 23:51, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
• keep please we need less bias and more international coverage like this Yuckfoo 00:02, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
• Delete per nom. --Hectorian 00:49, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
• Delete -- NikoSilver  ^{(T) @ (C)} 14:16, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
• Weak Keep Not really notable for his political office, but the Turkish wikipedia campaign put it over the top for me Bwithh 04:54, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
  • • Delete Not notable for political office or for wikipedia campaign. what was I thinking? Bwithh 04:56, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
• Keep. Interesting article on noteworthy political officer and wikipedia campaign. --JJay 05:20, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
• Delete per nom. --ManiF 15:30, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
• Delete, no notable achievement except that he was elected as a governor... As a Turkish citizen, I don't find him notable enough to be in any encyclopedia. - Kubra 11:32, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Note, though, that as a kaymakam, he was not elected, but appointed. —Saposcat 11:45, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Comments

He has more than 40,000 people in his district. From my East-European point of view, he is much more important than e.g. Mike Bach (a mayor of a 2,000-people town). Do not be so US-centric, please. And some of the facts are easy to see at the Turkish Wikipedia page. --Ioannes Pragensis 09:24, 2 June 2006 (UTC) Now, I deleted the user-page-like stuff from the article and formatted it; I hope that it will be a usable stub.--Ioannes Pragensis 09:32, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Sorry I'm not American, so I'm having a hard time being US centric, and just because Mr. Bach has a WP entry doesn't mean I endorse it. ~ trialsanderrors 09:34, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

 :-) You would be able able to excel even in hard disciplines. I should have written perhaps "Western World centric" but this does not sound well. Cheers --Ioannes Pragensis 09:45, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

It doesn't matter. I grew up in a town of 37,000 and my mayor has no business having her profile on WP. It's not, as you note above, statewide office. ~ trialsanderrors 09:52, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

• Comment, No opinion yet, but I'd like to see some verifiable information that he is indeed a regional governor. Most of what I see about him is wikipedia related or from the Turkish Wikipedia, site which is not a reliable source in my opinion (and this is not bias; I don't consider en.wikipedia to be a reliable source for wikipedia articles either). I'd also strongly suggest removing the "He is an active user of Wikipedia and supports the project - he has started the first and only official Wikipedia campaign so far in Turkey..." text. It is self-referential and not really important in the grand scheme of things; lots of people are active users of Wikipedia and support the project. Oh, and if anyone wants to bring Mike Bach to AfD, I'd vote delete on that one.--Isotope23 17:43, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

The verifiable information that he is a regional governor: It is enough to search in Google for "Beşikdüzü Kaymakam" (name of the province + "governor" in Turkish language); you get e.g. this: [1] (a newspaper). I think that this is beyond a reasonable doubt. Of course it is true, that his province is a small one. But IMHO still enough to fulfill WP:BIO somewhat. Here in the Europe/Near East region, all things are smaller than in the States :-) --Ioannes Pragensis 18:27, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Even better is to Google for "Beşikdüzü Kaymakamı", which makes it proper Turkish. --Lambiam^Talk 19:37, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

• This is the map of Trabzon province in Turkey. There are 18 districts in the province, one of which is Beşikdüzü. It's the orange one in the upper left corner of this map. So let's make it clear that Kartal is not the governor of Trabzon province, but the officeholder in a district.~ trialsanderrors 18:44, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

  Add link to taxonomy of national administrative units which makes clear that Ilceler are Level 4 units, of which there are 923 in Turkey. It's a level below German Kreise, and far from the level 1 or 2 needed for notability. ~ trialsanderrors 06:41, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Slow down, please. Nobody says that he is a governor of the Trabzon province.--Ioannes Pragensis 18:59, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

I was responding to Isotope's inquiry, not to your post. ~ trialsanderrors 19:10, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

The second map is interactive and gives further verification: if you hover the pointer over the upper left district (for left-right blind people: the orange blob) you'll see some offical information being displayed in the panel underneath, including the function and name of our friend. --Lambiam^Talk 19:46, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Comment I still have no strong leaning towards inclusion/deletion, but I cleaned up the article a bit (like the fact that is an active Wikipedia user... aren't we all?)--Isotope23 14:06, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

To correct various pieces of misinformation offered above: Turkey is divided into 81 provinces or iller, comparable to French départements. The head of a province is a governor or vali in the sense of the head of the highest regional subdivision. Wikipedia considers governors notable. Below the province is a district (ilçe), with a sub-governor (kaymakam) as its head. This is comparable to French arrondissements.

Eyüp Sabri Kartal is not the governor of Trabzon, in which case he would be notable ex officio. The governor of Trabzon is Hüseyin Yavuzdemir. Kartal is the sub-governor of a district of Trabzon province named Beşikdüzü (pop. 40,000), and as such he is not notable ex officio, just as a sous-préfet is not notable. A search on Lexis-Nexis also yields no English-language newslinks over the last two years. The only reason why we're discussing this is because Kartal had the chuzpa to create his own entry (against WP:AUTO) to promote his campaign (against WP:VANITY) and uses a sockpuppet to continue this campaign (against WP:SOCK). ~ trialsanderrors 05:43, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

Regarding the claim that Eyüp Sabri Kartal (a.k.a. User:Eculum and User:3210) is using a sockpuppet, I think that this is not entirely true. While it is true that both users are one and the same, a quick look at Eculum's contributions as against 3210's contributions shows that the earlier account, Eculum, has effectively been abandoned. There is a reason for this man's change in accounts; namely, a name change in real life, the story of which can be found here, in Turkish.

I do not disagree with the WP:AUTO and WP:VANITY claims, but I think that the WP:SOCK claim, when looked at with these facts in mind, is not entirely true. Cheers. —Saposcat 07:49, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

Hmm, sockpuppetry is simply the usage of two accounts without linkage but given the contribution histories I accept that this was not done in bad faith. ~ trialsanderrors 08:10, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

I think, that VP:VANITY was true when the article started. But now it has been thoroughly rewritten by Lambiam and by myself - both independent editors - and is based on sources.

Moreover I feel here something like double standards against people living outside of English speaking world. For example, I recently AfDed Veronica Ruiz de Velasco, a living US painter of Mexican origin, who has only two (!) independent hits in Google and had never a solo exhibition - only a hadful of articles mostly in general newspapers and magazines, and a few photos with Prince Charles. The AfD discussion is leaning clearly towards Keep. Now we have a man who lives outside of US, has a comparatively high political function and an interesting story, but his AfD should be Delete. I am perhaps a bit paranoic, but this looks like apartheid to me.--Ioannes Pragensis 13:07, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

Stop bolstering his political office. Countering claims (including his own), 99.9% of politicians of his rank do not have WP entries, and that includes US county supervisors. Also on the rewrite it looks like you simply reused his original sources. Are you following the local Trabzon press closely enough that you can include events that might not be to his liking? (Eg. "Local politician accused of graft") If not you should not pretend you're able to independently edit this article. If you're looking for a Turkish politician notable enough to warrant an article go here. ~ trialsanderrors 17:32, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

Btw, you can vote on the deletion of the Mike Bach entry now. ~ trialsanderrors 17:36, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

• Uh oh – The article on our friend at the Turkish Wikipedia has just been nominated for deletion: [2]. The rationale given is "unencyclopedic" (an argument I dislike; as it says on the page WP:AFD: The reason "unencyclopedic" is not an argument at all but just another way of saying "should be deleted".) I won't be able to follow the debate as I will be travelling all next week, but you can tally for yourself using the key Kalsın = Silinmesin = Keep; Silinsin = Silinmeli = Delete. Further Kesinlikle = Strong and Hemen = Speedy. --Lambiam^Talk 01:15, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

  I'm guessing "Unecyclopedic" is shorthand for "tons of scanned newspaper articles posted by the subject to praise the subject's accomplishments" here. ~ trialsanderrors 06:28, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

  Just before that nomination, on the same Log page, there were nominations for the articles on Turkey (the Republic) and Turkish (the language), the latter also with the rationale "unencyclopedic" (and furthermore: "wrong"). I don't know it means much. --Lambiam^Talk 08:18, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

  Same nominator? ~ trialsanderrors 19:55, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

  Looks like the Turkish Wikipedians are also leaning towards Silinsin. Evidently it's not all Western bias. ~ trialsanderrors 04:07, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

• He is also writer .His books about Mir'at--85.98.216.208 15:52, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

• He also has a swimming rekord.

Image:Kartal rekor kırdı.jpg

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.