Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Evan Doorbell

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. Sandstein 23:05, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Evan Doorbell

Evan Doorbell (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) – (View log)

No reliable sources seem to be available about this person. While the article claims notability, and Google gives some hits to blogs etc., the only source given is a private homepage, and no reliable sources have been added since January. If there are indeed no such sources, then the material is not suited for an encyclopedia - all the more because the article is apparently about a living person. -- Sent here as part of the Notability wikiproject. --B. Wolterding 10:59, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

I can understand the notability arguments, but the "reliable sources" argument is absolutely bogus. We're talking about trying to find information about a person using a pseudonym, used during a period when the web did not exist, operating in a field that was generally underreported and where the participants deliberately avoided publicity. As someone who writes extensively about tech during this era, let me assure you it's difficult to find reliable information about anything from this era. Try to find good reliable information about the CDC 8600 for instance. Maury 12:55, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

Yes, and that's the point. If it is not possible to find reliable sources about this topic, an encyclopedia should not cover it. That's not bogus, it's a Wikipedia policy: No original research. --B. Wolterding 13:15, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

All of these policies are designed to protect the WP from the insertion of incorrect information. They are, however, often misinterpreted to state something very different indeed, like your argument here. Do you feel that the person mentioned in this article does not actually exist? Or did not make these recordings? If you do not feel this way, and I do not, then OR obviously doesn't apply.

Let me be clear, I am not arguing against removing this article, I am arguing against removing it for the wrong reasons.

Maury 13:35, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

The question is not whether the statements in the article are true (that's something I can't check anyway), but rather whether they are verifiable. And without reliable sources, I can't reasonably verify them, nor can anybody else. They may be something you extract from the tapes, or rumour that you find spread on the Internet - but that's not suitable material for an encyclopedia. I don't see what's wrong about these reasons. --B. Wolterding 13:49, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

• Delete He's so well known, that we know nothing about his life. Mindraker 20:26, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

• Delete. It's cool, all right, but without attribution of notability to reliable sources, he fails WP:BIO. As a test, Google Books returns 67 results for "phreaking+crunch" (for Cap'n Crunch), 0 for "phreaking+doorbell". --Dhartung | Talk 21:17, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

• Delete - However cool, lacks verifiability even in the limited sense of legends about him. If there aren't articles, are there passages in books on phreaks and hacking? If not, fails WP:V. --Orange Mike 21:32, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

You see, now these are reasonable reasons. Maury 23:18, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

• We're sorry, you have reached an article that has been deleted or is no longer in service. As much as I enjoy listening to the Phone Trips tapes, they don't say much about his life or provide much background that contributes to a biography. It's also hard to deduce whether he's truly a notable figure within the category of phone phreaking, though the tapes are a good explanation of the phone system. Joybubbles (Joe Engressia) and John Draper (Cap'n Crunch) have been covered in magazines and other sources, and Steve Wozniak and Steve Jobs are known for achievements outside of phreaking. So, I'm going to go with a delete on this one. "This is a recording. 2-1-3-1-5." --Elkman ^(Elkspeak) 16:54, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

• Delete I agree; cool and non notable! --Stormbay 16:30, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.