Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Ethnostate

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was Delete. Walton Need some help? 16:09, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Ethnostate

Ethnostate (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) – (View log)

Article violates WP:NPOV and is for the most part unreferenced. The recently added reference is a book that is searchable on Google Books and the text does not contain the word "Ethnostate." It appears to have been added simply to allow the removal of the prod and unreferenced templates. Very questionable "facts" included in the article, such as the 2 Million German deaths in 1945 during their removal from Poland. Hatch68 02:08, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

  • Redirect to Nation-state, its a pov fork. Mystache 03:25, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
  • Redirect as per Mystache. Lankiveil 13:51, 1 May 2007 (UTC).
  • Redirect per Mystache, and rewrite section to become NPOV and factual. e.g. There is no such thing as "Mendelian selection". If the intent is to describe Social Darwinism, that should be stated, with ref. Else delete! Esseh 17:25, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
On reading through it, this is mostly POV racist claptrap, with no supporting evidence. Change to Delete. Esseh 17:32, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
  • You cannot claim this is about race as it is about ethnicity. Ethinicity is a combination of racial and cultural factors, both one or the other. It was not my intention to get into a debate over racial matters when I started it but you have pointed out that race and culture are often linked as it is easier to look at a persons skin colour and judge him based on that then what he is thinking. If anything there is a lack of reference links to information and I hope to rectify it soon when I have the time. --Delos 04:33, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep This article will be important in the coming years as ethnostates become more popular again. In the past nearly all countries were ethnostates as people who were not alike usually found themselves being driven out of town to the point that the country had a specific culture and heritage. Australia and U.S. have just said that multiculturalism does not work so we will soon see a shift back to this with cultural segregation (ghettos and gated communities) being the first step, then followed by separation of a state from the country as a whole as we are now seeing in Canada, Russia, and former Yugoslavian states like Montenegro. --Delos 22:34, 30 April 2007 (UTC)
Good of you to vote on your own article, but racists portray racism as "ethnicity". Anyone not of your "ethnic group" is an outsider, and so liable to exclusion - or worse. Unfortunately, you are right - it is worse than racism, since even those of the same race may be excluded (Turks and Armenians are both "Caucasian", as were Jews and "Aryans" in Nazi Germany; Hutus and Tutsies are both African; Bosnians, Albanians, Serbs, Croats and Slovenians are all Caucasian). Hatch68 (below) was more PC than me in calling it "propaganda"; I still say it's ethnocentric racist claptrap bullshit (WP is not censored)! Still oppose! Esseh 05:25, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
  • This appears to be nothing so far but a propaganda article. Two million Germans died in 1945 because of forced removal from Poland? You'll have to do better than an obscure book reference to back up those kind of statements. Hatch68 01:53, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep It's an important article in that it provides a counter balance to the multicultural articles. I have only started editing it over the last few hours. I did the top bit about caste creation. I think that the Supporting Arguments should be linked more to Kevin B. MacDonald due to the fact that the word ethnostate is used on the Kevin B. MacDonald article. It says that he accepted the Jack London Literary Prize from The Occidental Quarterly, using the award ceremony as an occasion to argue for the need for a "white ethnostate" to maintain high racial birthrates. In his acceptance speech, he stated, "The best way to preserve ethnic interests is to defend an ethnostate — a nation that is explicitly intended to preserve the ethnic interests of its citizens." According to MacDonald, one of the functions of such a state would be to exclude non-European immigrants who are attracted to the state by its wealth and prosperity. At the conclusion of his speech, he remarked, "The alternative faced by Europeans throughout the Western world is to place themselves in a position of enormous vulnerability in which their destinies will be determined by other peoples, many of whom hold deep historically conditioned hatreds toward them. Europeans’ promotion of their own displacement is the ultimate foolishness — an historical mistake of catastrophic proportions." --Twoheel 12:52, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
    • Note: The Keep vote by Twoheel immediately above was not added by TwoHeel, but by Delos. The text was copied from the discussion page of the Ethnostate article, but the Keep header was added by Twoheel. See edit differential here. Hatch68 15:11, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete - concept doesn't seem significant enough to merit its own article. I see no other sources on it other than the Robertson book. Moreover, significant portions of the text seem to be lifted almost identically from clearly POV sources such as this one. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Debivort (talk • contribs) 06:02, 2 May 2007 (UTC).
  • Comment - I haven't made any claims of racism and I will continue to avoid that topic. Please keep the discussion focused on the reasons the article was nominated, which are the WP:NPOV conflicts and the lack of reliable references. The statement about 2 million Germans being killed is not even backed up by the Wikipedia articles that were referenced in this discussion. The articles say that at most 1.1 million Germans died, which means the numbers here are inflated by about 80%, which leads back to the WP:NPOV problems which prompted the prod template and then the AfD. Hatch68 14:37, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete (or possibly re-write) Racism here is irrelevant - just because a concept is racist doesn't mean it doesn't belong - after all we have articles on Nazi eugenics; however, this particular concept is fairly obscure and this article is poorly sourced to the point of indicating non-notability. Maybe a re-write that takes out apparently POV statements like

    Everyday we see new ethnic horrors, many of which the people of the world may never even hear about. Ethnostates may be "messy" to achieve but in the long run may be the only positive way to re-think the fundamentals of statecraft in the 21st Century with multiculturalism not living up to all of its expectations.

    and does a better job citing could make this salvagable. CredoFromStart 14:49, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete what is basically an essay about a non-notable concept. It also appears to be a POV fork of Nation-state. (It also contains some statements that are simply incorrect, which in and of itself is not a reason for deletion, but if the article as a whole does remain, a good portion of it has to go.) 6SJ7 04:09, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
I must admit to being humbly chastised. Of course, being racist is not, in and of itself, reason for deletion - as has been pointed out. I offer my apologies to all for over-reacting. However, being unsubstantiated, very POV and overlapping with already existing articles (social Darwinism, eugenics, and (as suggested by 6SJ7) Nation-state, for example) is. So, on those grounds, I still vote delete, or move to a sub-section of one of the above. (Just as an afterthought - I hadn't known there was an article on Nazi eugenics. Are there ones on British eugenics, or American eugenics? If these are red, I guess not... why not?) Esseh 04:35, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.