Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Erik Bornmann

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus (default to keep). I never close as no consensus, but it really is appropriate here. I suggest that careful attention is paid to going through the article and pruning any unreferenced information as per WP:BLP, and only adding information back into the article when reliable sourcing can be obtained. If it is found that sufficient referenced assertion of notability cannot be found, then resubmitting the article to AFD would be appropriate. Proto::► 12:13, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

Further note - I have removed all unsourced info from the article to ensure WP:BLP can now be adhered to. Proto::► 12:18, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Erik Bornmann

nn political consultant. User:Zoe|(talk) 19:40, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

• Neutral: might be notable, but current page reads like WP:AUTO and WP:VAIN, so it would be no great loss. - Jmabel | Talk 19:48, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
• Looking at the page history, there are disputed allegations that have (properly) been removed under WP:BLP. Redirect to BC Legislature Raids, as it seems to be undisputed that he is involved in this affair as a prosecution witness[1]. Demiurge 19:55, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
  • We shouldn't redirect to a page if there is no mention of the redirected title on that page. User:Zoe|(talk) 20:00, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
    • He probably should be mentioned on that page though, seeing as how he's the prosecution's "star witness". Demiurge 20:05, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
      • And looking at the history again, he was indeed mentioned in previous versions e.g. [2] Demiurge 20:18, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
• I'd be happy to delete the article, at least for the time being. All of his notability, such as it is, seems to come from the Legislature incidents. The nature of his involvement is unclear for now and pretty hard to discuss because of BLP. The current version, edited largely by disposable accounts, is problematic as JMabel pointed out. Perhaps there could be an article here when the dust settles on the Legislature raids. If the consensus is for a merge rather than delete, I'm fine with that. --JGGardiner 20:55, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

• Having thought about it for a while, I am no longer certain that I am happy with all of my original comments (i.e. "vote"). I'll leave the rest however. Thanks to the editors below, I now see that there may be more to this than I had realized earlier. --JGGardiner 11:22, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

• Neutral: Bornmann is certainly notable for his involvement in the Liberal Party in BC, the public relations industry in BC and the Paul Martin Liberal Leadership Campaign. However it is obvious that this page was first created by persons interested posting libelous information about Bornmann with a clear view to discrediting him in advance of the criminal trial where he is expected to testify on behalf of the Crown. The continuous and malicious posts of one or two posters has compelled a number of us to return to this page on a regular basis to make corrections. At this point it is fruitless to debate who started deleting what first, but it is safe to say that the ensuing discourse has very much resembled that seen on many other pages profiling politically active persons. While others may have different ideas I suggest that the neutral Bornmann page, which was locked for editting by a previous Admin in the spring, be reposted and again locked for editting (maybe until after the trial) or that the page be deleted. rascalpatrol 21:02, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
• Delete seems like egotistical, shameless self promotion to me. GreenJoe 06:00, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

*Delete per nom and above. Just some articling student in Toronto who's one of many non-notable political activists. Agent 86 19:43, 30 December 2006 (UTC)Change to Keep, see below Agent 86 07:25, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

• Redirect to BC Legislature Raids; add one or two lines about him in there if he isn't already mentioned. Bearcat 23:41, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
• Delete, non-notable vanity. The only notable political intern I can think of is Monica Lewinsky. --Duke of Duchess Street 03:41, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
• Redirect for now. No point throwing away the work done so far, as a neutral article will likely emerge after the dust settles. Kla'quot 05:50, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
• Delete per nom, or redirect per Bearcat. Fishhead64 00:00, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

 Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so that consensus may be reached
 Please add new discussions below this notice. Thanks, Quarl ^(talk) 09:17, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

• Delete There have been some really inappropriate posts on this site. This is really unfortunate, but until a more neutral post is agreed upon, the site should be removed Titus Pollo 18:33, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Comment. I previously closed this debate as Redirect to BC Legislature Raids. However, an editor who I assume wants to vote keep was blocked during the debate, and to avoid the appearance of trying to rig the system, I am allowing him to make his statement, and extending debate. —Quarl ^(talk) 2007-01-02 09:15Z

• Delete I see no value in this entry until this person and his testimony shows significant importance and usefulness in relation to the other convicting evidence. User:The Teacher 101 18:33, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Comment Both "The Teacher 101" and "Titus Pollo" have only contributed to this page and have no other presence in Wikipedia. This is typical of the manipulation of information by SPAs which has plagued the Bornmann page. I have been trying to shorten my vote/statement as it's fairly lengthy but may just post it in its entirety, as it explores the misleading and false claims made by such SPAs in the history of this page, and I do not put it past other supporters of Mr. Bornmann to create Wiki accounts to vote in this process and for no other reason, as The Teacher 101 and Titus Pollo have done. Such votes should be discounted as irrelevant. Deletion would only serve the interests of those who wish to conceal the record of information manipulation and censorship by covering-up their activities in undermining Wikipedia's integrity and content by systemic vandalism and POV opinionating.Skookum1 20:40, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Further comment It's worth mentioning that the political party Mr. Bornmann belongs to is well-known for bulk membership drives in order to advance candidacies and otherwise manipulate party democratic processes. That they would seek to do the same on Wikipedia - signing up new members in order to influence a vote (see towards the end of [3]- comes as no surprise to me at all.Skookum1 20:44, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

• Keep, Restore, and Protect This article’s uncensored, un-neutralized comments constituted valid encyclopedia content regarding an important current legal case and political scandal which is in the news on a regular basis. I feel the suggestions to delete are redirect are based in the manipulated, "neutralized" content (to use rascalpatrol’s term) of its current status. I also feel rascalpatrol’s post above is manipulative and deceptive, as the materials he and others deleted from the page were not "libelous" but are immune from defamation proceedings by dint of being from public documents (police reports/press releases, court documents, news copy) (see [[4]]).

Issues of core wiki principles – non-censorship and freedom of speech as well as civility and other principals linked/appended below – should be critical in deliberating the value and survival of this article and those connected to it. It is not incidental that the "neutralizing" camp here has counterparts on BC Legislature Raids who regularly work to keep Mr. Bornmann’s name from that article as well, or indeed any significant and already well-publicized and well-documented details currently made vague or left out entirely, as well as entirely valid media links and cites which were deleted by the Bornmann faction (on the basis that, in one case, the author belonged to a different political party). The allegation that occurs repeatedly in Talk:Erik Bornmann and in edit histories of that page and its article is that a concerted effort is being made to discredit Mr. Bornmann, which is entirely unfounded, as are the allegations by his supporters/promoters in the talk page that those attempting to add relevant materials are in league with “those criminaly charged” (sic), when in the course of posts on the talkpage rascalpatrol (now deleted, or hidden in deleted materials) describe themslves as a group of people who are actively seeking to patrol and “neutralize” the article. There is a fine line between neutralization and censorship, but "neutralization" as used by rascalpatrol et al. means nothing like what WP:NPOV is supposed to mean in Wiki; WP:BLP can be observed so long as only materials in police documents, court evidence etc or concerning the public interest are what’s there.

To delete this article on the grounds that it (currently) contains nothing worthwhile would be to unwittingly collaborate with a campaign of active and admitted censorship of material that, although unbeknownst to you outside of BC, concerns the public interest and is not a personal matter as rascalpatrol and others maintain that it is. Redirecting it to BC Legislature Raids is currently a non-starter partly because that article has also been persistently "neutralized" (as rascalpatrol puts it) by supporters of Mr. Bornmann, and also because each of the principal players in the case will (eventually) have as detailed an account here as well.. Admittedly Mr. Bornmann is and was not an elected official as with other political bios, but he is still a prominent party supporter/activist as well as a corporate lobbyist involved with the sale of public assets and with companies doing business with the government – and the sale of assets in question (the Crown-owned BC Rail was eventually sold to American-owned Canadian National Railways, not Mr. Bormann's client OmniTRAX) was and is a highly controversial sale the debate over which is still on the public agenda. Mr. Bornmann is a public figure whether he wants to be or not!! Backroom politics is still politics. Other lobbyists and party organizers in the US and Canada and other countries have valid Wiki articles that have not (always) been so "massaged" and worked-over.

The entire scandal is also framed by mounting allegations of a cover-up. The mutilation of the Bornmann article which has resulted in the circumstance of this AFD has greater consequences which should be considered in this light: i.e. deletion would be an unwitting cooperation with politically partisan cover-up efforts and "information washing" as much as tolerating the existing "neutralized" version of the page. It is not only Mr. Bornmann’s reputation that’s at stake here, it’s a matter of the public record and of civil democracy. Only POV material on Mr. Bornmann should be deleted (including the flummery that’s there now) - but NPOV citable material should be restored, and protected. Rascalpatrol and his allies also repeatedly and falsely alleged I am a returnee from previous edit wars on the page [5] [6] and have throughout the history of the page deleted talkpage comments by their opponents (including the section linked in the second reference just previous, which was a bulk deletion by Randy3 with the PAIN comment "a mind is an awful thing to loose" (sic), and this deletion was discussed approvingly and further disparaging comments made by Randy3, another Bornmann supporter or "patroller" like rascalpatrol and SaintNickIX and JGGardiner) claiming that I am just a returned former opponent in the page (along with another disparaging comment), which is quite ridiculous and can be proven by an examination of my User Contributions as to the date I first edited the article, and admins could confirm that my IP address has not contributed to that article under any other alias. You'd think from my writing style they'd know that's not the case!

NB: Deletion of this article will result in destruction of the edit history, which documents what constitutes a history of active and deliberate censorship, media muzzling and cover-up of the broader scandal surrounding the subject of this article by accomplices and allies of same – the story of the cover-up is itself becoming part of the Ledgegate scandal, and the attempts to censor this and related webpages can only be seen as part of that cover-up. Any deletion will, in effect, serve as part of the cover-up effort every bit as much as the euhemerization and bowdlerization of this article’s contents to its current state of flummery and irrelevance. The repeated deletions of any newscopy related to the case and their replacement by Mr. Bornmanns’ personal photo gallery speaks volumes as to the priorities and ethics of those who have been “patrolling” and “neutralizing” this page. Sections from Wikipedia:What Wikipedia is not are quoted and linked below, as it seems the SPAs involved in this case are unfamiliar with how Wiki works, and what’s expected of its contributors, and also what’s not appreciated/wanted.Skookum1 21:41, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

1. Self-promotion It can be tempting to write about yourself or projects you have a strong personal involvement in. However, do remember that the standards for encyclopedic articles apply to such pages just like any other, including the requirement to maintain a neutral point of view, which is difficult when writing about yourself. Creating overly abundant links and references to autobiographical articles is unacceptable. See Wikipedia:Autobiography, Wikipedia:Notability and Wikipedia:Conflict of interest.
2. Personal web pages. Wikipedians have their own user pages, but they may be used only to present information relevant to working on the encyclopedia. If you are looking to make a personal webpage or blog, please make use of one of the many free providers on the Internet.
3. [Wikipedia is not censored]
4. Wikipedia is not a battleground Wikipedia is not a place to hold grudges, import personal conflicts, or nurture hatred or fear. Making personal battles out of Wikipedia discussions goes directly against our policies and goals. Every user is expected to interact with others civilly, calmly, and in a spirit of cooperation. Do not insult, harass, or intimidate those with whom you have a disagreement. Rather, approach the matter intelligently and engage in polite discussion. If a user acts uncivilly, uncalmly, uncooperatively, insultingly, harassingly, or intimidatingly toward you, this does not give you an excuse to do the same in retaliation. Either respond solely to the factual points brought forward and ignore its objectionable flavoring, or ignore the relevant message entirely.
5. Wikipedia is not a democracy Wikipedia is not an experiment in democracy or any other political system. Its primary method of determining consensus is discussion, not voting. Although editors occasionally use straw polls in an attempt to test for consensus, polls or surveys may actually impede rather than assist discussion. They should be used with caution, if at all, and may not be treated as binding.

• Delete Skookum1 should also be aware that wikipedia is not a soap box or news blog. The problem with many of the posts to this site, including those of Skookum1, is that they are simply incorrect. Many have been libelous. Sourcing to political blogs is NOT verification. As for whether Skookum is a person with an interest in the BC Rail criminal trial, the length and tone of his contribution above speaks for itself. Wikipedia should not be a forum for parties embroiled in a criminal trial. Delete this page with no redirect. --Omar Jack 00:43, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Please note that User:Omar Jack's only contribution to Wikipedia has been to this review and could possibly be a sock puppet. Mkdw^talk 06:32, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Comment Omar Jack is yet another SPA who has only "worked on" (vandalized) Erik Bornmann as well as Talk:Erik Bornmann; he has a total of six edits in Wikipedia only, including the above "vote". I am not soapboxing - I am standing up for genuinely NPOV principles and for "the right of the the public to know"; I do not have a partisan affiliation, unlike the SPAs who have perpetrated this fiasco, and only intervened in the interests of fairness and open information because of my interest in fully covering BC political history in Wikipedia, as part of my extensive contributions in history, geography, and biography as well as in many other areas of interest - I have over 12,000 edits in Wikipedia and entire and extensive bodies of infrastructure/topic content are due to my participation. Omar Jack, rascalpatrol et al. have done nothing to contribute to Wikipedia other than violating several of the above-cited Wikipedia principles. This is not a partisan cause; it is a case involving open democracy and freedom of information, being painted by those seeking to conceal it as if it were simply a personal matter, and they regularly denounce anyone disagreeing with them with "soapboxing" and worse. The insinuation in Omar Jack's post above that "I am a person with an interest in the BC Rail trial", as if I were another principal or player in the case, is outrageous, as even more is Wikipedia should not be a forum for parties embroiled in a criminal trial - these are clear examples the WP:PAIN this cadre have perpetrated in the article's talk page and thoughout the edit comments of the article. It also makes a mockery of their various allegations that those seeking to present a complete article are indulging in slander and libel, as Omar Jack's comments clearly fall into that category (since I am not a party "embroiled in a criminal trial". Why should a citizen not be interested in the suspect sale of BC Rail and the police reports which document Mr. Bornmann's own admitted attempt to influence it on behalf of OmniTRAX? I am not a person "of interest" as Omar Jack implies (without directly saying so): I am citizen wanting the public record concerning these events, of which Wikipedia is a part, to be full and complete. That's not soapboxing or blogging; it's principle.Skookum1 01:06, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

• Please make the article visible so others can comment. DGG 06:12, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

This would require a fair bit of editing, as there were several rounds of deletions of valid material. I tried to sum them up in my post of December 28, but the re-additions were immediately deleted by Randy3 (the link goes to the comparison of my post with his deletions of it). Read through it for a summary; I think towards the bottom I also made a point of putting in material "they" had deleted from the main article, but I didn't "mine" its edit history it as thoroughly as I had that of the talkpage.Skookum1 07:42, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

• Keep The article meets Wikipedia's notability guidelines as this person is a former political representative to one of the main political parties in Canada and also has been interviewed and written about by the public media. See: CBC National News: Eric Bornmann] article. Also, in a search for Erik Bornmann on the Globe and Mail online site, quoted:

VICTORIA -- The two men at the centre of one of the most riveting events in British Columbia's political history say they will be acquitted of all charges stemming from a raid on the provincial legislature that took place three years ago next week.