Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Elisa Bernerström

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was Keep, consensus is that the sources are sufficient to establish notability. Davewild (talk) 21:48, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Elisa Bernerström

Elisa Bernerström (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) – (View log)

Non-notable bio - no reliable sources. The one source listed mentions Bernerström once on page 10 of 12. Cross-dressing to go to war is not notable by itself.

Re-Nom - last one was, as stated, a train wreck. SatyrTN (talk / contribs) 05:02, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

  • Keep The nomination makes no sense. How can you say there are no reliable sources when in your next sentence you admit that she's noted in an article? You assert that women who dressed as men to fight in wars are not notable but quote no wikipedia policy or other evidence to substantiate that claim. The sheer number of books, articles and press material on the phenomena would tend to indicate you are wrong. Nick mallory (talk) 06:38, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
    • Comment: Hold up there, Nick! First, just because there's a reference doesn't mean it's a reliable source. Second, I never said that "women who dressed as men to fight in wars are not notable". I said that doing that isn't notable by itself. I agree totally that the "phenomena" is interesting and notable - but that doesn't mean everyone who does it is notable. Not everyone who climbs Mt. Everest is notable just because they did it. -- SatyrTN (talk / contribs) 15:37, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep – In that I believe the category is notable, hence the individuals involved are notable. However, I could understand why SatyrTN (talk / contribs). Nominated for Afd. Very little material and what there is, is in Swedish. I see no bad faith nomination here. Shoessss |  Chat  14:34, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete: WP:V requires multiple reliable sources, not just the one cite. I don't know about a "sheer number" of books, articles and press material, but of the just 41 hits I find on the Swedish Google [1], almost all of them are this article and various Wiki mirrors.  RGTraynor  16:16, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep It's awfully hard to get any information about female soldiers in history; for some reason history books tended to gloss over such embarrasments. So anything that has survived a couple of centuries is worth keeping. Re sources, the pdf file referenced by the article isn't clear about which information it's taken from there, but it does list a decent bibliography so I think it's reasonable to assume that there's at least one other source for the information about Elisa Bernerström, even if it is in Swedish and in print. --Zeborah (talk) 06:05, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete. I don't think this passes any reasonable interpretation of WP:BIO, unless someone turns up verified offline citations. As stated in the nom, simply being a female crossdresser in wartime is not notable. All we have are about three lines of information about her, and what it documents is interesting, but not by itself notable. Mind you, if there were a stronger assertion of notability in the original text I'd give this more consideration.--Dhartung | Talk 06:36, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete. For the same reasons as Dhartung. This just doesn't seem notable enough. Women have served in many wars, we don't make a page for each of them. If additional notable information is uncovered, I'd be willing to switch to Neutral. Ghostmonkey57 (talk) 10:57, 28 December 2007 (UTC)Ghostmonkey57
  • Note Someone has just added a line to the article asserting notability in that "She is one of two confirmed women to have been decorated for bravery in battle in Sweden before the 1900s." I don't know the source of the "two confirmed women" part, but even if this phrasing were deleted, the original source does say she was decorated for bravery in battle ("Med anledning av detta tilldelades hon medaljen för tapperhet i fält.") Certainly many women have fought in wartime but few indeed, particularly in such an era, have been decorated for it, and this seems a reasonable fact on which to base notability: see WP:BIO "The person has received significant recognized awards or honors." --Zeborah (talk) 23:05, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
  • Conditional keep I believe the added sentence about being one of 2 confirmed women before 1900s to be decorated clearly establishes notability. The only problem is that comment isn't exactly sourced. I personally am willing to give the benefit of the doubt, but I can't ignore that the article is still shy of wikipedia standards. A little more work towards sourcing and I'd definitely support a keep.-Andrew c [talk] 23:34, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
I've just clarified the references in the article and done "a little more work towards sourcing" - just with no conclusive results. <wry smile> I think there'd be more information in the Warnstedt article on medals, in Släkthistoriskt Forum, but this magazine isn't held in any libraries in my country and the author is dead. I can email the author of the Kvinnorna och Kriget paper, in the hope that he understands English (my Swedish is hopeless) and can give more information; otherwise I can see if I know anyone who can get hold of the Warnstedt article for me; otherwise I can request it as an interlibrary loan. But most likely this will take longer than the AfD process typically allows. --Zeborah (talk) 02:31, 29 December 2007 (UTC)
  • Update Have just had an email from the author, who's provided two more references. One is a book (not being able to get a copy easily myself I've listed it on the talk page), the other a website which I've added to the article itself. It doesn't mention Elisa by name but calls her "fru Servenius" (Mrs Servenius) and "hustrun" (the wife) and generally corroborates the story. --Zeborah (talk) 22:36, 29 December 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete unless more sources can be provided. The article certainly makes a claim to notability (being one of two Swedish women to be decorated in battle before the 20th century), but it really needs more sources to show it. Can anyone from the Swedish Wikipedia help with this one? Terraxos (talk) —Preceding comment was added at 05:02, 29 December 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep - the decoration, particularly for a woman in these circumstances, is in itself notable. As for sources, given the language and lack of currency of the issue it's not surprising that grubbing the Internet hasn't turned up much. But a historical figure who appears in a 12-page gloss (a "tertiary source") has other primary/secondary sources supporting; these need to be adduced, certainly. --Lquilter (talk) 17:31, 29 December 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep appears to be notable, but as for sources - Wikipedia:There is no deadline. I agree with Lquilter's point above. --Solumeiras talk 22:38, 29 December 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep as per Lquilter. Edward321 (talk) 23:39, 29 December 2007 (UTC)
  • Weak keep, the sources seem adequate enough for an article.-h i s s p a c e r e s e a r c h 21:13, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep per WP:HEY. Benjiboi 00:18, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so that consensus may be reached.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Rt. 18:39, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
  • Keep, seems to be sufficiently unique to be notable and is sourced adequately - Dumelow (talk) 18:56, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.