Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Elim Bible Institute
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was Delete RS problems verifying the notability of this diploma mill.Blnguyen (bananabucket) 06:34, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Elim Bible Institute
- Elim Bible Institute (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs)
- Elim Bible Institute - Buffalo (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs)
Un-accredited, unnotable school of unknown importance. I can't find out how many claim to attend. EBI lists three "faculty" on their webpage so I'm guessing its a small organization. Doesn't offer "degrees," but has a "three year diploma program." Fails WP:CORP. Arbustoo 03:29, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
- Delete Not accredited, no external references or other claims to notability. -RustavoTalk/Contribs 03:52, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
- Keep - If we can keep any old public elementary school, we can keep this. A google search for "Elim Bible Institute" revealed 795 hits. A search for my own elementary school Wildwood Elementary School (California) (searching "'Wildwood elementary school' Piedmont"), reveals only 614 hits, significantly less than Elim. I say this as an atheist, in case anyone was going to cry religious bias. -- Cielomobile talk / contribs 04:54, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
- Comment 1) An elementary school is a public organization paid for with a large faculty[1] paid for with tax dollars. Thus, one could argue its in the public interest to have an article about a publicly funded institution. Compared to Elim Bible Institute, which is private and of unknown size/faculty. 2) Less than 800 ghits is very low. But more importantly that is not an argument to keep, see: Wikipedia:Arguments to avoid in deletion discussions#Google test. Do any of the ghits show importance/allow for expansion? How does this pass WP:CORP? Arbustoo 06:00, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
- To begin, that is an essay. The Google test, while not argument in itself, is perfectly acceptable as supporting evidence. My main argument was that if we allow basically any elementary school (when is the last time you've seen an elementary school's article deleted? Wildwood with its enormous faculty and student body of 271 students is but one among many which are permitted), we should also allow this institution's inclusion. Wikipedia is not partisan to public interest or taxpayer dollars, so I see that argument as irrelevant. There are multiple secondary sources on the school, see: [2] and other Google results. Admittedly, there do not seem to be any sources which easily and definitively establish notability, but this is not true for most schools. Small private high schools tend to be allowed, even if they are not particularly notable. -- Cielomobile talk / contribs 06:37, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
- How does this pass WP:CORP? Saying it has less than 800 ghits is more of a reason to delete than keep. Wildwood has and spends $8,919 per student every day of tax payer money.[3] If you want to talk about that school I suggest you take your comments there. Then again, many don't see what keeping an elementary school has to do with this. Arbustoo 06:38, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
- It would seem that most schools' articles do not pass WP:CORP. In my opinion, schools deserve an article of their own. As for your taxpayer argument, Wikipedia is not partisan to the United States government and is not concerned with any institution's status as public versus private. No more Amerocentrism, please. -- Cielomobile talk / contribs 06:45, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
- I think most institutions of higher learning have, WP CORP: been subject to multiple, non-trival sources. How is this notable without sources? Arbustoo 06:47, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
- Cielomobile is talking about elementary schools, not notable institutions of higher learning. Most public elementary schools are even less notable than these theological schools, so it makes no sense to keep the former and delete the latter, save out of some bizarre "public" vs. "private" prejudice. Being publicly funded doesn't make something notable. Djcastel 16:13, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
-
- This afd isn't about elemnentary schools, you can use the talk page to carry this on. How is this place notable? Where are the sources to write an article about? Arbustoo 23:34, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
- That is just my point; rarely are articles on public elementary schools deleted, so unless someone is willing to begin a purge of all such schools, it makes no sense to delete this article. Like I said before, WP:CORP is not really aimed at schools, although "educational institutions" are mentioned very briefly on the page. -- Cielomobile talk / contribs 17:25, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
- How is this notable? Give WP:RS that we can write an article about. Arbustoo 23:33, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
- I've already given my rationale. There are plenty of websites which list the college and basic info; just perform a Google search. The school's own website can be used as a source, too. -- Cielomobile talk / contribs 04:01, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
- How is this notable? Give WP:RS that we can write an article about. Arbustoo 23:33, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
-
- Cielomobile is talking about elementary schools, not notable institutions of higher learning. Most public elementary schools are even less notable than these theological schools, so it makes no sense to keep the former and delete the latter, save out of some bizarre "public" vs. "private" prejudice. Being publicly funded doesn't make something notable. Djcastel 16:13, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
- I think most institutions of higher learning have, WP CORP: been subject to multiple, non-trival sources. How is this notable without sources? Arbustoo 06:47, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
- It would seem that most schools' articles do not pass WP:CORP. In my opinion, schools deserve an article of their own. As for your taxpayer argument, Wikipedia is not partisan to the United States government and is not concerned with any institution's status as public versus private. No more Amerocentrism, please. -- Cielomobile talk / contribs 06:45, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
- How does this pass WP:CORP? Saying it has less than 800 ghits is more of a reason to delete than keep. Wildwood has and spends $8,919 per student every day of tax payer money.[3] If you want to talk about that school I suggest you take your comments there. Then again, many don't see what keeping an elementary school has to do with this. Arbustoo 06:38, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
- To begin, that is an essay. The Google test, while not argument in itself, is perfectly acceptable as supporting evidence. My main argument was that if we allow basically any elementary school (when is the last time you've seen an elementary school's article deleted? Wildwood with its enormous faculty and student body of 271 students is but one among many which are permitted), we should also allow this institution's inclusion. Wikipedia is not partisan to public interest or taxpayer dollars, so I see that argument as irrelevant. There are multiple secondary sources on the school, see: [2] and other Google results. Admittedly, there do not seem to be any sources which easily and definitively establish notability, but this is not true for most schools. Small private high schools tend to be allowed, even if they are not particularly notable. -- Cielomobile talk / contribs 06:37, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
- Comment 1) An elementary school is a public organization paid for with a large faculty[1] paid for with tax dollars. Thus, one could argue its in the public interest to have an article about a publicly funded institution. Compared to Elim Bible Institute, which is private and of unknown size/faculty. 2) Less than 800 ghits is very low. But more importantly that is not an argument to keep, see: Wikipedia:Arguments to avoid in deletion discussions#Google test. Do any of the ghits show importance/allow for expansion? How does this pass WP:CORP? Arbustoo 06:00, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
- Weak keep they do seem to be an organized college with actual students. I think that's enough for a college, bible college or otherwise.DGG 06:24, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
- Really? How many students and from what source? Also do they refer to themselves as a college/bible college or is that your opinion?Arbustoo 06:38, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
- Comment - I do, however, think the Buffalo campus article should be merged into the main article. -- Cielomobile talk / contribs 06:37, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
Keep many private schools have their own wiki page and the fact that one school receives government funding does not necessarily make it any more notable then one that doesn't. Guycalledryan 10:18, 16 May 2007 (UTC)Upon further thought changing to Weak Delete, school is not accredited which separates it from other private schools, but it can still be regarded as an alternative college Guycalledryan 10:36, 16 May 2007 (UTC)- Accreditation really has little to do with anything. Many unaccredited bible colleges choose not to be accredited, as I believe Elim chooses. -- Cielomobile talk / contribs 04:01, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
- And many diploma mills say they "choose" not to be accredited as well. How does this pass WP:CORP? Arbustoo 05:01, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
- This school was founded in 1924. It is not a diploma mill, Arbustoo. -- Cielomobile talk / contribs 05:16, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
- Who said it was? But I'm curious as to what WP:RS you have to confirm it isn't? Arbustoo 05:20, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
- Many non-notable schools/universities/colleges have wikipedia articles simply because they are places of learning. As Arbustoo has stated chosing not to have accreditation can often mean an institution has lower then acceptable standards, and EBI has no sources suggesting that it is other. Because of this the article cannot be viewed as being about a recognised place of learning, and hence without achieving notability elsewhere it must go Guycalledryan 06:47, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
- Who said it was? But I'm curious as to what WP:RS you have to confirm it isn't? Arbustoo 05:20, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
- This school was founded in 1924. It is not a diploma mill, Arbustoo. -- Cielomobile talk / contribs 05:16, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
- And many diploma mills say they "choose" not to be accredited as well. How does this pass WP:CORP? Arbustoo 05:01, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
- Accreditation really has little to do with anything. Many unaccredited bible colleges choose not to be accredited, as I believe Elim chooses. -- Cielomobile talk / contribs 04:01, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
- Delete both - No citations provided, non-notable organization. Smee 10:26, 16 May 2007 (UTC).
- Delete, nn bible school. Lankiveil 11:25, 16 May 2007 (UTC).
WeakKeep - I can hardly imagine that a higher school existing since 1924 would not be mentioned many times at least in local media (and in Christian media in this case). I think that the accreditation or the lack of it is not a key question in AfD.--Ioannes Pragensis 22:30, 16 May 2007 (UTC) - Changing vote to normal keep because I've found external sources myself.--Ioannes Pragensis 11:50, 18 May 2007 (UTC)- Comment: I looked and I didn't find any WP:RS to write an article with. Accreditation isn't the issue. Where are these sources so we can write an article? Arbustoo 23:33, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
- Comment: It is usually very hard to find local sources from 1930s or so. But this does not mean that they do not exist. - In this case I think that their own website is a source reliable enough to write a stub containing basic data (location, year of foundation, theological orientation). And for the rest we can wait until someone goes through the pile of old newspapers...--Ioannes Pragensis 08:43, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
- Comment Why do we need sources from the 1930s? Since the article purports it is still in operation sources in the last 80 years would be fine. Anyone have any? Arbustoo 01:59, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
- Comment In fact we should use all relevant sources regardless of time. But you are true, in this case there is no need to return back in 1930s to find printed independent sources. I've found two books which mention this school in connection with its role in the Pentecostal movement; I added both of them to the article, section References.--Ioannes Pragensis 11:47, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
- Comment Why do we need sources from the 1930s? Since the article purports it is still in operation sources in the last 80 years would be fine. Anyone have any? Arbustoo 01:59, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
- Comment: It is usually very hard to find local sources from 1930s or so. But this does not mean that they do not exist. - In this case I think that their own website is a source reliable enough to write a stub containing basic data (location, year of foundation, theological orientation). And for the rest we can wait until someone goes through the pile of old newspapers...--Ioannes Pragensis 08:43, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
- Comment: I looked and I didn't find any WP:RS to write an article with. Accreditation isn't the issue. Where are these sources so we can write an article? Arbustoo 23:33, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
- Comment - Do you have a prejudice against Christian theological institutions, Arbustoo? [4] -- Cielomobile talk / contribs 04:01, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
- Comment: No. I do have something against unnotable organizations/business that cannot be supported with WP:RS. Just so you know: I started: California Biblical University and Seminary, Pacific International University, Transnational Association of Christian Colleges and Schools, West Coast Baptist College, and many others. I have nominated Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Preston Institute of Management Science and Technology (PIMSAT), Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Randford University, Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Islamic Online University, Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/École supérieure Robert de Sorbon, and many unnotable "schools."
- Comment: Now two things: Your "comment" was an attack on me, and two you STILL HAVEN'T SUPPORTED YOUR VOTE WITH A SINGLE SOURCE! Arbustoo 04:51, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
- I should have asked you on your talk page, not here, but it was not meant as an attack. You have my apologies, and I would be happy to remove the comment if you'd like. However, I have given a source, see my initial comment, in which I gave this source. There are other such sources which give basic information on Google. I have also said that most schools do not pass WP:CORP, yet they are included anyway, so unless you wish to begin a purge of all schools which do not pass it (pretty much every elementary school, middle school, and most high schools), there would be double-standard if this article is deleted. Hence, I do not believe WP:CORP should apply to schools. It is merely a guideline anyway, and it is not binding. This is a fair time to ignore all rules. I have stated this all quite clearly, though I have not specifically mentioned IAR. Also, please don't SHOUT. -- Cielomobile talk / contribs 05:16, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
- That is not a source with any valuable information. Every single criteria says "Not Available." Arbustoo 05:19, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
- You still have not addressed the double-standard I allege. -- Cielomobile talk / contribs 05:29, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
- Also, the source does provide basic information. Any college may choose not to release information about race, gender, and so forth, which are what it lacks (other than number of students, which admittedly bothers me, but not to the point of deletion). -- Cielomobile talk / contribs 05:34, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
- keep Thank you for taking the time to look at Elim's website. The official Elim website has been updated as of May 4th, 2007 and updates will continue to be made throughout the summer. Elim Bible Institute's Wikipedia page has also been updated as of today to include current academic programs and certification. EBI Admissions 20:43, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
- Comment This is the user's second ever edit, and judging from the name and comments is tied to this "institute." An AFD is not a vote.Arbustoo 01:51, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
- Comment: Arbustoo, it is OK when you demand independent sources. But please do not remove them if someone adds them to the article. --Ioannes Pragensis 18:51, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
- Comment I formatted the sources. They aren't sources/references if they don't cite anything. We don't know if these are trival... Arbustoo 06:59, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
